Vigilantes > Suggestions & Feedback
Game Pacing
Nomad:
Well... I think you should go with whatever you've already got (assuming you've already got something going, or in mind).
I'll be happy to see the enemies sporting different gear.
There's heaps of melee weapons for them to choose from. There's a reasonable number of guns. It will make the fights a little different for them to have a variety.
I'm happy to see what you've got in mind. I'm sure it will work just fine.
And as far as them getting gear too early...
My perception was that when I do surveillance, there are areas with low wealth and areas with high wealth. If I know the high wealth areas are going to have bigger guns/knives, then I just won't do them early. I'll do all the low wealth areas and clean up the dregs before I move up to medium.
It doesn't have to be wealth x crime, but if it is, then I'm sure it will be fine.
ushas:
IIRC gangs are supposed to grow in time - in numbers, leveling up, building facilities, upgrading gear, training troops... If the gear itself would go as you say, many players will do exactly opposite than you.
@Daithi Yeah, on the base level though all gangs want the same, priorities can be re-balanced later, no? That's why was having fun over equipment, no problem if the implementation doesn't fit, its principle is general - the gang AI being robust as bare while it's easy to add nuances (factions, global progression/upgrades, local space and time variations). You have much more going on though, of course. Except, you guys still want to tie the AI's hands for gear as opposite to nudging. >:( (btw. why is mafia always in the middle?)
I don't think anybody expects that anything will happen as imagined, on the contrary it a kind of frees...
(in case of trying to shoo the discussion, too mild tbh, hint: redirect)
--- Quote from: Nomad on May 22, 2017, 06:41:08 AM ---I do see where you are coming from. You're looking at it from a business perspective. Only spend what you need and then spend reactively.
--- End quote ---
Not necessarily. Flexible system will let you do such if desired. Doesn't need to work like that though, probably won't.
--- Quote ---The player is observing the gang in a particular area and evaluating their threat level. Then the player writes down three values. These are observational values.
Why can't they just apply?
--- End quote ---
Empirical... Mars does not live by epicycles, his mistress is the gravity.
And that's the beauty isn't is? When empirical laws do apply (under certain conditions), you can go by those laws and fight the enemy, and yet observing just effects of a bigger force...
Btw. a good summary from the player's perspective. Intel we're getting is a mixed bag indeed.
Let's categorize useful things to know:
* Attributes of a tile (basic resources, doesn't change)
* Gang's presence
* Wealth
* Gang's long term and short term activities in the area (strategical part)
* Crime rate (% of tile's wealth collected, not sure if its grow is set in stone or can vary)
* Number of tile occupants (goes with crime, unsure how exactly, upper limit for # of enemies for a battle?)
* Underboss / Leader (not sure how/if benefit, but their placement (hunting) is a part of gang's (player's) strategy)
* Special Encounters (??)
* Facility (gives local/global benefits to gangs)
* Tactical: Opposition to be faced in battle (varies, based on gang's strength, indirectly says how much gang values the tile at the moment)
* Number of enemies / Guard level (either exact or gives good sense how much to expect)
* Average level of enemies (it's tied to global leveling, not sure if useful to know)
* Danger level (how strong/buffed relative to gang's base troops)
* Equipment level (how well equipped, either relative to gang's current average, or exact in tiers)
* Mission objective
* Leader (morale mechanic, special enemy) (things are uncertain, not sure how will correlate, took the liberty, feel free to correct)
Nomad's proposal to disentangle gear level and number of enemies is interesting, if possible (especially if helps to liberate AI:)). It makes sense next to the Danger. But I would keep Wealth and Crime too, those are good to know strategically.
The question of absolute vs. relative: Globally the gang is in the state reflected on all tiles. One needs to know is how it differs between them. One can use Guard/Danger/Gear level, with scores relative to gang's base. So Low Guard means 5 Survivalists but 7 Churchers, etc. You don't see absolute numbers, but if you pay enough attention will get the grip.
Alternative surveillance list v3 (ordered by approx intel % needed)
Gang
Guard level
Danger level
Equipment level
Wealth
Crime rate
Leader / Special. Encounter
Facility
Edit: correction rackets-> spec. encounters; re-ordered list to put tactical intel first - just something to consider.
Daithi:
@ Ushas: I think the most likely outcome is that on the wealthiest tiles, the gangs will get +1 to equipment level. In the scale of 10 levels, this is pretty small. Outside this, the gang will have to purchase permanent upgrades and build rackets (some provide bonuses to local tiles, others global bonuses) to increase the quality of their gear. Each gang's AI will make the choices on what goals to pursue.
Not trying to shoo discussion - you're welcome to talk about anything. It doesn't take long to follow the discussion and a single perspective is much too narrow to design a game of this scale, so ideas are very useful for improving decision. Trying to avoid giving the impression that anything's going to happen very soon in this area, or that anything weeks or months away from being worked on is fixed.
Hadn't thought about showing equipment level, but can see certain advantages to it, particularly in terms of detecting rackets which boost equipment level in a local area.
ushas:
Albeit what you said about equipment would be possible with flexible AI too, I understand, will have to declare defeat. :'(
For the better, of course, the most important is that you work towards your vision the way feels the best.
Yeah, it's good to moderate our expectations, in case translated wrong (ie. over the internet), wouldn't mind to be redirected from reasons you mentioned. On the other hand, knowing you're sticking to your schedule makes one less worry being out of line...
--- Quote from: Daithi on May 23, 2017, 09:47:21 AM ---Hadn't thought about showing equipment level, but can see certain advantages to it, particularly in terms of detecting rackets which boost equipment level in a local area.
--- End quote ---
I smell detective approach!
To recap, from the pacing perspective it's good if tactical buffs in numbers/toughness/gear here & there vary in space & time, so players experience different setups. As secondary, it would be neat if contains deeper campaign meaning as well. You have ideas, fingers crossed.
What we seek - Leaders/bosses, (spec. encounters), facilities and high income tiles? So what about a system where each of those 3-4 categories boosts at least one observable tactical parameter on a tile(s), differently if possible, each leaving its own imprint? Perhaps it's handled individually for each gang (reflecting their priorities).
If done well and players will be able to detect or suspect via observing uneven guard/danger/equipment levels or so, no need to tell explicitly, like at all. It would be satisfying finding out the correlations and how utilize in hunting on one's own...
Well, I guess complicates balancing though...
Edit: correction rackets-> spec. encounters
ushas:
I've watched the video (a nice map btw.), did you just said rackets=facilities? :o
I'm an idiot. All the time thinking rackets are special encounters (like the bootleggers and such). That aside facilities the gang AI is also deciding when/where to trigger those and some of them are supposed to give temporary local/global bonuses too, so you can detect... while you were talking the facilities... Well, better late than never, I guess.
Will edit some of the posts, as many things make no sense anymore. Apologies for confusion. Please don't hesitate to correct me when factually wrong.
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