Vigilantes > Suggestions & Feedback
Overwatch, Attacks of Opportunity
ushas:
All me is on the reaction radius side here.
Yeah, also thought about low CTH shots at distant enemies, now I see what you meant with the minimum CTH, but if you use this for permitting reactions it's harder to guess for players (also some will whine that it's too low and some too high). So we may end up using only highly skilled ones, more so if can't control at who they shoot.
Whereas in case of something more simple like discussed distance being the threshold you have more clear base to build upon your positioning and to factor it in your decision whether to postpone your shot into overwatch or not.
Let me know if you're not diverted enough from the CTH threshold, have reserved one more argument as reaction fire.
Distance is usually based on some stat, but I like the spirit of presets idea. Giving some more control. Just not sure about usability vs. implementation yet (perhaps offer some slides in options, but that's also more work). If I may, depends what you want to accomplish - for similar principle it's also possible to use the weapon+mode combination itself as the distance threshold defying (aka loading a constant variable from an array). Pistol in snap reacting at lower distance than in normal mode, precision rifle having all distances bigger than pistol, a shotgun has it already defined, etc. This one loosely gives AP cost vs. distance correlation and is weapon dependent.
Ok, overwatch button makes a sense. Kudos for reasoning, also tells us more about your intentions. Just don't forget a key-binding. Btw. reaction radius can also be shown as highlighted on the ground when mouse-overing that button.
Rest later, am much slower to type.
Daithi:
I'm leaning toward CTH being the triggering factor, with 4 settings: 0-25%, 26-50%, 50-75%, 76-100%. It's likely that players will quickly get a feel for a good range, appropriate to the weapon and skill combination. Distance modified by fire mode is from a coding perspective more complex, and am not convinced a range for trigger is any better than CTH for trigger: it mostly swaps one unknown for another (unknown (when overwatch triggers) -> unknown (chance of attack being successful).
By all means, deploy your argument :) Won't get to it today, and would rather get ideas on it before committing.
ushas:
--- Quote from: Daithi ---By all means, deploy your argument :)
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With pleasure :)
Unfortunately, my turns are delayed so it will be in the next one. Keep the shields up!
Might be wrong, but I believe who and when fifes does impacts the decision making.
So after vanishing the limitation is it now like everybody at their first trigger but sequentially? (what happens if one of them eliminates the target?)
--- Quote ---I don't think it will have much impact on how the system works. Currently set to melee first, then ranged, in order that characters entered overwatch.
--- End quote ---
Perhaps may work with delaying actions or if being asked that y/n, otherwise other options would give better prospects, for example, the CTH order or distance from the target (both similar, CTH favors more real chance, while distance is again easier to use when you can guess the enemy's position)...
I suppose also boils down to additional calculations and programming though.
--- Quote from: Daithi ---Feeling is that overwatch should be automatic, with some control over when to trigger. Otherwise, control will continually pass to player (on every tile the enemy moves), they will decide whether to take the shot or pass. The second approach gives more control, but it's going to undermine pacing and add a lot of clicks, which is going to be frustrating.
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Depends if you operate under "reaction fire given on each step". There are some options, but what triggers a reaction - simply each step on a tile?
In old x-com there is difference between move then shoot and shoot then move. The former puts you into worse position at the shooting time as you already spent some TUs, thus having lower reaction score. Another example is UFO:AI with their reaction fire contest, see ufopedia.
So similar AP comparison mechanic:
Let's reserve some AP amount for overwatch (can simply remember the mode cost). Next it's an enemy's turn.
-- Till his AP spent is lower than our reserved -> he acts still faster.
-- Once his AP spent is higher than our AP reserved -> reaction fire!
Note1: Obviously, makes snap earlier to proc, but if an enemy is coming to us - using normal mode will proc when he is more closer (-> differs in CTH).
Note2: No need to evaluate costly conditions like cth or distance until the acting unit spends more AP than is the lowest AP reserved on the opposite side.
Back to the question when a reaction procs. Triggering closer to the beginning of enemy's turn may look good, but in case already inside the threshold (be it CTH or distance) that also pose the question why I wouldn't rather fire during the proper turn before as the conditions aren't so much different (eg. he steps just one tile, not necessarily in my direction)...
Obviously you've thought such situations over, even thinking to give us an y/n option. However, couldn't be choosing the weapon+mode and threshold on its own enough for declaring how we wish to trigger? The AP comparison above and sequencing watchers by CTH are examples how to do that. Yeah, asking rather to be constrained than y/n on each step.
PS: Not sure but based on what you said, the Overwatch button might work as the reservation. You can reserve weapon+mode & AP any time, so you don't accidentally spend AP or have the wrong weapon readied. Problem: it would require (un)locking the weapon on one of the hands when (un)reserved.
Daithi:
--- Quote from: ushas on July 03, 2017, 10:58:02 PM ---
Might be wrong, but I believe who and when fifes does impacts the decision making.
So after vanishing the limitation is it now like everybody at their first trigger but sequentially? (what happens if one of them eliminates the target?)
--- Quote ---They will stop firing/attacking. The limitation was initially to prevent all characters firing at once and wasting attacks on a KO enemy.
--- Quote from: ushas on July 03, 2017, 10:58:02 PM ---Perhaps may work with delaying actions or if being asked that y/n, otherwise other options would give better prospects, for example, the CTH order or distance from the target (both similar, CTH favors more real chance, while distance is again easier to use when you can guess the enemy's position)...
--- Quote ---
Not keen on the idea of asking the player at each step. Will really slow things down. Picking highest CTH first sounds good though. I'm probably going to move on and try to get AOO and initiative order working first.
--- Quote from: ushas on July 03, 2017, 10:58:02 PM ---I suppose also boils down to additional calculations and programming though.
--- Quote ---
Yeah, getting pressed for time. Strongly considered skipping this update and moving straight to prepping for steam.
--- Quote from: ushas on July 03, 2017, 10:58:02 PM ---There are some options, but what triggers a reaction - simply each step on a tile?
In old x-com there is difference between move then shoot and shoot then move. The former puts you into worse position at the shooting time as you already spent some TUs, thus having lower reaction score. Another example is UFO:AI with their reaction fire contest, see ufopedia.
So similar AP comparison mechanic:
Let's reserve some AP amount for overwatch (can simply remember the mode cost). Next it's an enemy's turn.
-- Till his AP spent is lower than our reserved -> he acts still faster.
-- Once his AP spent is higher than our AP reserved -> reaction fire!
Note1: Obviously, makes snap earlier to proc, but if an enemy is coming to us - using normal mode will proc when he is more closer (-> differs in CTH).
Note2: No need to evaluate costly conditions like cth or distance until the acting unit spends more AP than is the lowest AP reserved on the opposite side.
Back to the question when a reaction procs. Triggering closer to the beginning of enemy's turn may look good, but in case already inside the threshold (be it CTH or distance) that also pose the question why I wouldn't rather fire during the proper turn before as the conditions aren't so much different (eg. he steps just one tile, not necessarily in my direction)...
Obviously you've thought such situations over, even thinking to give us an y/n option. However, couldn't be choosing the weapon+mode and threshold on its own enough for declaring how we wish to trigger? The AP comparison above and sequencing watchers by CTH are examples how to do that. Yeah, asking rather to be constrained than y/n on each step.
PS: Not sure but based on what you said, the Overwatch button might work as the reservation. You can reserve weapon+mode & AP any time, so you don't accidentally spend AP or have the wrong weapon readied. Problem: it would require (un)locking the weapon on one of the hands when (un)reserved.
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Yeah, it is triggered when the character reaches a new tile. The AP trigger mechanism is interesting - wasn't aware of that system - it definitely adds more depth. You seem to have an encyclopedic knowledge of TB games! I'm going to run with the current setup for now, but will keep this in mind for tweaks. As you pointed out on dex, having LOS to most enemies and no FOW reduces the usefulness of overwatch, so will put the version out, and get feedback on whether it's a good area to work on some more.
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Nomad:
--- Quote from: Daithi on July 03, 2017, 06:38:16 PM ---I'm leaning toward CTH being the triggering factor, with 4 settings: 0-25%, 26-50%, 50-75%, 76-100%.
--- End quote ---
Do you mean that if someone is set to 0-25% then they wouldn't attack someone if the chance was 88%?
Or do you mean that the settings would be 0+ (shoot at the first target in range that moves), 25+ (only shoot at targets that have a greater than 24% chance), 50+ (shoot if greater than 49 CTH) and 75+ (shoot at any target with a 75 or higher hit chance)?
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