Intel on gangs v21-23

[ushas]

Had some time to play, but as the next build gets wrapped up figured will leave bug hunting for upcoming version. Will give some impressions instead in the meantime, if that's ok. There were changes v21->v22->v23. We got HQs, for example. Unfortunately, can't tell apart from here, but I guess Daithi will have an idea what is or isn't a consequence of play across versions (eg. what is set at the start etc.).

1) Gang HQs
1a) In my play (started in v21), HQs weren't in gang's territories. Had one new v23 game for testing, all HQs were at home tiles (according to log).

1b) On cityscape the game presents the HQ+boss as a common lieutenant mission.


2) On bosses
2a) A lieutenant becoming boss
Now this was a surprise. Thought I will put the whole church organization down in one single battle. We were letting them be, bugging other two gangs, except for a small detail of asking about the church CEO. The plan was to cut the head. All went well... and after knocking down the CEO, opened the gang intel screen expecting some congrats... Uh?!... a lieutenant promoted to a boss?!
 
Haha, well played!:) I suggest making post ending expansion: Shareholders DLC (cause those bastards are the real enemies)

In past there was a mention of recruiting lieutenants, I misunderstood it as specialist->lieutenant but seems it's to be lieutenant->boss. Starting to understand the gang leadership is formed by all of them. For some reason I thought we can bypass lieutenants, thus was giving them much lower intel value when musing in the past (happy to be proven wrong:)). So we have to put down all of them, right?

Went after the newly recruited boss. The game loads a common map. Makes sense, the new boss had barely time to look around, moreover to build a new HQ.

I wonder about how it's gonna differ going through lieutenants first vs. attacking HQ+boss. Guess the former is initially easier to reach and battle. On the other hand, perhaps the latter deals more harm early on. But depends on what role lieutenants play in the gang's prosperity.

In either case, am liking that we can choose our way.

2b)Sometime the game doesn't get the boss removed (and a lieutenant promoted). Guessing this was the resolved bug? I've taken down the church boss during v21 and a lieutenant gets promoted, then the next one. Tried to take down Mafia boss during v23, he stays.

2c)Interrogating boss: Right now when you interrogate the boss, it gives the same text like for a common lieutenant. Am assuming the end game is yet to be fleshed out, np here.


Though it makes sense to continue with Mafia as the underboss is up to promotion, and we all know what will happen next...

One thing: We're attacking their main facility, perhaps don't need to interrogate the boss? Can crack his safe or something... For example, boss+HQ can always give the highest intel possible on any gang we ask, like in rackets. But it's just a thought, prob. you have other plans.

2d) Interrogating newly promoted boss
Hmm, seems on the interrogation screen, the newly promoted boss is still a lieutenant. Now, either the interrogation isn't fleshed out yet, or I got it totally wrong in thinking that he got promoted:D (it may as well be like with the moving buttons, portraits just shift position up on the gang intel screen)... Anyway, if the promotion happened, shouldn't he start lvl up faster (or how the boss is) and getting bigger bonus?

2e) After certain date can't launch the battle with leadership. This goes for all the bosses, and seems for lieutenants too after certain later date (eg. Alex Mazlo, Aug 13, similar error, he is lvl31). Although we talked only the Mafia boss I guess all of them undergo the same coding, so probably it's resolved for all. Just mentioning for consistency.

2f) Specialists giving intel on boss
Recalling there were some changes, specialists starting to give intel on bosses, so unsure how it works.

Dunno if it's related to lvl or because there were no surv. lieutenants anymore, or I got lucky during v23, but was given by specialists all needed intel from 0 to 100% for the survivalist boss, 3 in a row.

The right one is probably a bug, the boss was in the offerings even after we had all pieces already.


3) Rackets
Initially I wanted to see how goes targeting lieutenants so paid no attention to rackets. Battled two lvl1 lately.

3a) Gang intel screen vs. interrogation info
See pic at (2f), one facility with 50% is called "Unknown" here, while on the gang intel screen it says Training facility lvl 1. Could be handy to have this specified in interrogation too. If you have more 50% facilities - which one is which?

3b) Everyone from specialists up is willing to give info on lvl1 facilities, but I wasn't lucky at all on getting any intel on lvl2 ones.

Asked a church specialist about Mafia. He gave me only a troop lvl intel: crime info on a tile. At the time, had all Mafia leadership uncovered, but no intel known on their 3x lvl2 rackets (I know about them from the log). Then asked another specialist about survivalists (also already had all leadership uncovered) and he gave me info about their lvl1 training facility (but not about the lvl2 one). Thus am guessing specialists don't give info on lvl2 rackets?

But who does? When loaded older save and battled with the Mafia boss, you can see that he's offering me only one option on pic above at (2c). According to the log, think Mafia had 2x lvl2 and 1x lvl1 rackets. I got offered and answered only the lvl1 one (hm, what would he tell if there wasn't any lvl1 one?)


Uff, am more confusing than not. Hope there is anything useful the pile of babbling.

[Daithi]

To address a couple of points.

1) Far as can remember HQs are randomly placed and can appear in any tile

2a) A lot of this end game stuff hasn't been added, so there's some work to do here. There's no promotion mechanics, this is likely just a flaw in logic which occurs when boss is removed. What is indicating the character is a boss?

There won't be any recruiting lieutenants, instead if all lieutenants are KO, you can get boss intel from specialists. This decision was primarily to reduce game length and it was a simpler solution.

2b) Yes, this was fixed in V23.

2e) Yep, this one was fixed too in V23.

3a) I need to update how the string is generated. Likely fallout from reducing intel required for rackets.

3b) AFAIK, there's no distinction based on racket level between how racket intel is given. Specialists + should give it. All enemies will provide more basic intel, if intel at current level is not available - could that be a possibility?

[ushas]

Thanks for info. Re 3b: think if the log reports the number of rackets correctly then based on what you said I should have been given info on mafia rackets not just basic intel when interrogating church specialist. But will come back to you later with more detail, if that's ok.

[Daithi]

Sure, do that! In case this might be throwing things off, the main base is also considered a racket.

[ushas]

Looking forward how it plays in the future. I fully understand esp. end game is yet to be fleshed out, however, have no means to distinguish in what degree it already is or isn't. So, when thought about doing some summary after 60 battles campaign, in the end opted for just giving open impressions of the intel gathering. Yeah, I obviously made myself a foul, but really thought for a long time that there was a boss promotion. Wasn't till near the end when started having a bit doubts. Dunno, is it useful to hear how people perceive things? 

Clues why thought there is an underboss promotion:
-- after removing the church boss, the portrait of the first (leftmost) lieutenant went up to the boss position on the gang intel screen. Then after putting him down, the next lieutenant moved there, etc. (can fetch a screenshot if needed).
-- after eliminating the boss the gang seems to continue operations (hadn't really expected anything though).
-- when asking about Survivalists the boss was listed among lieutenants as if equal (see 2f, btw. it told me his name even though had 0%)
Again, understood things are WIP, just that it contributed to the feeling... Or perhaps I just watched The Godfather too many times:)

Wasn't specified whether we will have to eliminate all lieutenants, so guessing it might be still up in the air. Just that if yes, then am having an impression that the promotion feels even natural. Of course, if only the boss is what ultimately puts down the gang no matter remaining lieutenants, then it doesn't make sense. I guess it's also easier to keep it shorter.


Ree 3b) The promised info:
Loaded save right after the Mafia boss battle:

Code: [Select]

LoadSaveManager.LoadRacket. Number of rackets retrieved : 11
RacketDataScript.CopyAndReturnRacket. Method called. Retrieving Mafia Villa level: 2
CityMapDataScript.PlaceLoadedRackets. racket of type: 0 /Level:2 instantiated bonus: 0
CityMapData.OverwriteRacketWithSavedData. Method called. ID: 0 aware of racket: False
RacketDataScript.CopyAndReturnRacket. Method called. Retrieving Black Market level: 1
CityMapDataScript.PlaceLoadedRackets. racket of type: 4 /Level:1 instantiated bonus: 1
CityMapData.OverwriteRacketWithSavedData. Method called. ID: 10 aware of racket: True
RacketDataScript.CopyAndReturnRacket. Method called. Retrieving Night Club level: 2
CityMapDataScript.PlaceLoadedRackets. racket of type: 7 /Level:2 instantiated bonus: 1
CityMapData.OverwriteRacketWithSavedData. Method called. ID: 4 aware of racket: False
RacketDataScript.CopyAndReturnRacket. Method called. Retrieving Night Club level: 1
CityMapDataScript.PlaceLoadedRackets. racket of type: 7 /Level:1 instantiated bonus: 1
CityMapData.OverwriteRacketWithSavedData. Method called. ID: 7 aware of racket: False
RacketDataScript.CopyAndReturnRacket. Method called. Retrieving Chop Shop level: 2
CityMapDataScript.PlaceLoadedRackets. racket of type: 6 /Level:2 instantiated bonus: 2
CityMapData.OverwriteRacketWithSavedData. Method called. ID: 6 aware of racket: False
RacketDataScript.CopyAndReturnRacket. Method called. Retrieving Chop Shop level: 2
CityMapDataScript.PlaceLoadedRackets. racket of type: 6 /Level:2 instantiated bonus: 2
CityMapData.OverwriteRacketWithSavedData. Method called. ID: 5 aware of racket: False
RacketDataScript.CopyAndReturnRacket. Method called. Retrieving Churcher HQ level: 3
CityMapDataScript.PlaceLoadedRackets. racket of type: 1 /Level:3 instantiated bonus: 0
CityMapData.OverwriteRacketWithSavedData. Method called. ID: 1 aware of racket: False
RacketDataScript.CopyAndReturnRacket. Method called. Retrieving Training Facility level: 1
CityMapDataScript.PlaceLoadedRackets. racket of type: 5 /Level:1 instantiated bonus: 0
CityMapData.OverwriteRacketWithSavedData. Method called. ID: 3 aware of racket: False
RacketDataScript.CopyAndReturnRacket. Method called. Retrieving Training Facility level: 1
CityMapDataScript.PlaceLoadedRackets. racket of type: 5 /Level:1 instantiated bonus: 0
CityMapData.OverwriteRacketWithSavedData. Method called. ID: 8 aware of racket: False
RacketDataScript.CopyAndReturnRacket. Method called. Retrieving Black Market level: 1
CityMapDataScript.PlaceLoadedRackets. racket of type: 4 /Level:1 instantiated bonus: 1
CityMapData.OverwriteRacketWithSavedData. Method called. ID: 9 aware of racket: False
RacketDataScript.CopyAndReturnRacket. Method called. Retrieving Survivalist Bunker level: 2
CityMapDataScript.PlaceLoadedRackets. racket of type: 2 /Level:2 instantiated bonus: 0
CityMapData.OverwriteRacketWithSavedData. Method called. ID: 2 aware of racket: False
So unless I read it wrong, Mafia has 4 rackets, one HQ Mafia Villa (lvl2) and three regular: Black Market (lvl1) and two Night Clubs (lvl1 and lvl2). The boss gave me one option and it ends up the Black Market one.

Now the thing is, if they are equal (lvl1 vs. lvl2), it may give an option to choose between three unknown rackets. Like when you have a choice to draw one card out of three. But that would also give away info that there are three of them... Or an alternative is that the question is like "tell me if there are any rackets I don't know about yet" and then the game randomly chooses one out of three for me. Does it work like in the latter? ->  In that case it was 1/3 chance to get lvl2 racket and I could have been simply didn't get it. 
 

However, for the church specialist (later in the campaign):

Code: [Select]

LoadSaveManager.LoadRacket. Number of rackets retrieved : 11
RacketDataScript.CopyAndReturnRacket. Method called. Retrieving Mafia Villa level: 5
CityMapDataScript.PlaceLoadedRackets. racket of type: 0 /Level:5 instantiated bonus: 0
CityMapData.OverwriteRacketWithSavedData. Method called. ID: 0 aware of racket: False
RacketDataScript.CopyAndReturnRacket. Method called. Retrieving Black Market level: 2
CityMapDataScript.PlaceLoadedRackets. racket of type: 4 /Level:2 instantiated bonus: 2
CityMapData.OverwriteRacketWithSavedData. Method called. ID: 10 aware of racket: False
RacketDataScript.CopyAndReturnRacket. Method called. Retrieving Night Club level: 2
CityMapDataScript.PlaceLoadedRackets. racket of type: 7 /Level:2 instantiated bonus: 1
CityMapData.OverwriteRacketWithSavedData. Method called. ID: 4 aware of racket: False
RacketDataScript.CopyAndReturnRacket. Method called. Retrieving Night Club level: 2
CityMapDataScript.PlaceLoadedRackets. racket of type: 7 /Level:2 instantiated bonus: 1
CityMapData.OverwriteRacketWithSavedData. Method called. ID: 7 aware of racket: False
RacketDataScript.CopyAndReturnRacket. Method called. Retrieving Chop Shop level: 2
CityMapDataScript.PlaceLoadedRackets. racket of type: 6 /Level:2 instantiated bonus: 2
CityMapData.OverwriteRacketWithSavedData. Method called. ID: 5 aware of racket: False
RacketDataScript.CopyAndReturnRacket. Method called. Retrieving Elysium Lab level: 2
CityMapDataScript.PlaceLoadedRackets. racket of type: 3 /Level:2 instantiated bonus: 2
CityMapData.OverwriteRacketWithSavedData. Method called. ID: 11 aware of racket: False
RacketDataScript.CopyAndReturnRacket. Method called. Retrieving Churcher HQ level: 5
CityMapDataScript.PlaceLoadedRackets. racket of type: 1 /Level:5 instantiated bonus: 0
CityMapData.OverwriteRacketWithSavedData. Method called. ID: 1 aware of racket: False
RacketDataScript.CopyAndReturnRacket. Method called. Retrieving Training Facility level: 1
CityMapDataScript.PlaceLoadedRackets. racket of type: 5 /Level:1 instantiated bonus: 0
CityMapData.OverwriteRacketWithSavedData. Method called. ID: 3 aware of racket: True
RacketDataScript.CopyAndReturnRacket. Method called. Retrieving Training Facility level: 1
CityMapDataScript.PlaceLoadedRackets. racket of type: 5 /Level:1 instantiated bonus: 0
CityMapData.OverwriteRacketWithSavedData. Method called. ID: 8 aware of racket: False
RacketDataScript.CopyAndReturnRacket. Method called. Retrieving Black Market level: 2
CityMapDataScript.PlaceLoadedRackets. racket of type: 4 /Level:2 instantiated bonus: 2
CityMapData.OverwriteRacketWithSavedData. Method called. ID: 9 aware of racket: False
RacketDataScript.CopyAndReturnRacket. Method called. Retrieving Survivalist Bunker level: 2
CityMapDataScript.PlaceLoadedRackets. racket of type: 2 /Level:2 instantiated bonus: 0
CityMapData.OverwriteRacketWithSavedData. Method called. ID: 2 aware of racket: False
So Mafia has 4 rackets, one HQ Mafia Villa (lvl5) and three regular: Black Market (lvl2) and two Night Clubs (both lvl2). As said I had all lieutenants uncovered and this specialist gave me no options. According to the screenshot he tells just basic info on G1.


I'm a bit cautious to request you to check anything of mentioned though, in case there are some side effects of playing across three versions or ghosts of already solved issues. However, let me know if you have any concerns or recommendations what to look out for.

[Daithi]

Yep, definitely useful. In general, the level of information the game provides isn't great at the minute, so good to know where uncertainty lays.

There are likely still some problems with intel around gang leaders. It's an area that doesn't come up too often, so it's likely to have some rough edges. The portrait moving into boss slot is just an oversight. Haven't really decided what happens when boss KO yet - maybe prevent gang from purchasing any more rackets/upgrades and reduce their income/recruitment - any thoughts?

You won't have to eliminate all lieutents, just enough so you can find the boss. Don't want to making the game longer for who wants to play a shorter game.

On rackets, from memory, think it gives you the option to get information on existing rackets, or to get information on next unrevealed racket - the racket it gives you is almost certainly not random also, it will just give you the next unrevealed one.

If that save (from later in campaign) is V24 can you send it on to me? They should only default to providing basic info if there is nothing of equal intel level available.

[ushas]

Haven't really decided what happens when boss KO yet - maybe prevent gang from purchasing any more rackets/upgrades and reduce their income/recruitment - any thoughts?

A gang ronin? Makes sense. Whatever you decide their reaction should be. Also in case the boss and/or the base themselves have any significant influence on income/loadout/bonuses/booze then also removal on its own has some natural effect.

Hmm, trying to imagine how it plays. Some changes you talk about won't be imminent in terms for us to observe. As it's a gang finale, maybe make extra sure players perceive it that way? Obviously, you're not planning for the gang to suddenly disappear. Maybe we can still target them for intel on other gangs or even clear (i.e. plunder) the rest leadership/rackets if fancy so? Then in that case it needs to be indeed communicated well that the gang is as good as done in this story, so it's clear that don't need to hunt the remains to win the game. I know it's a kind of nobrainer, but wanted to emphasize given the voiced intentions to keep it short. Not thinking anything specific. 

If that save (from later in campaign) is V24 can you send it on to me?

It isn't. It's all in V23. Haven't played V24 that far yet, but can try run some quick tests using sleepin' time, and later also target rackets more in overall... 

[ushas]

Racketeering in v24
About the test. No intel on leadership. Slept till churchers had all rackets lvl2 (2 x lvl2 chop shops according to log). Interrogated mafia specialists about church. Was given a racket intel all right. It was indeed a chop shop. However, then on the gang intel screen it says Chop chop lvl 1. Upon finding out the place on the cityscape it says lvl2. I'm not sure how/if a map differs lvl1 vs. lvl2, so nothing definitive from the battle itself. The first racket gave me intel on the second one and the second lvl2 Chop Shop informed about a church lieutenant.

Conclusions
-- Perhaps gang intel screen wrongly reports racket level?
-- So, yes, enemies do give intel on lvl 2 rackets (assuming the gang intel screen info is wrong)

Could there be any difference when one has all intel on leadership uncovered already?
(aka was thinking about the next time I'm to get all intel on leadership first and then try ask about rackets...)

[Daithi]

Gang intel screen could well be reporting incorrectly - seems like a good place to start.

There are likely to be some bugs around late game intel - it doesn't get that much testing. Fixed an issue in this area last week. If you have all leadership intel, it should attempt to give racket intel, and failing that it might give boss intel, or downgrade the intel quality and tell you about a district.