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Vigilantes => Resolved Bugs => : Nomad July 22, 2017, 04:01:27 AM

: [Nomad - Can you help?] Enemy not releasing his turn
: Nomad July 22, 2017, 04:01:27 AM
*facepalm*
I broke it straight away again.
Firstly, I started this mission by accident (I was clicking Surveillance quickly and accidentally hit Start Mission).
Then, luckily for me, it was only three guys.
Unluckily for me I only had 3 med kits and 2 spare bullets for my pistol.
I was doing ok... but then the guy ran in front of me, took a shot... and then nothing. I think he's just forgotten to hit End Turn.

(https://scontent.fmel1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/20155754_1770007753029178_3388768716005512256_n.jpg?oh=bd9b4e223aa3c0f7d6868bbbba25a52b&oe=59F91615)
Edited to add the picture (because I forgot).
: Re: Enemy not releasing his turn
: Nomad July 22, 2017, 08:22:03 AM
Happened again.
I had Sam and Ray on punching Overwatch. Ray took his shot.
The Mafioso is not relinquishing her turn.

Note in the background (just under Sam's initiative portrait) there are 3 Mafioso. The one in the middle is the one whose turn it is.
(https://scontent.fmel1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/20245352_1770195939677026_5609688929753925719_n.jpg?oh=7b31f05517165c2c31191581e3502f0d&oe=5A059F8B)
: Re: Enemy not releasing his turn
: Nomad July 22, 2017, 08:53:32 AM
The first time it happened I wasn't using Overwatch. The second time I was. So, I don't believe Overwatch is the culprit.

The first time I was solo and the second I wasn't.
The first time was Survivalists and the second Mafia.
The first time the guy shot at me before freezing, the second time I think the person was just moving (I don't know if they moved but they didn't have a gun in their hand).

Both times it was my turn next, so it looks like an issue with the hand-off.
: Re: Enemy not releasing his turn
: Nomad July 24, 2017, 05:44:05 AM
Ok... this time it was a little different (possibly an Overwatch issue?).

My people laying in ambush, testing Overwatch.
Soldier comes around the corner. Elena is set to Lethal, everyone else is set to subdue.
Elena opens fire when he clears the corner. She hits him for 40.
Then the Cop fires twice and hits him twice for 24 each.
Then the Survivalist forgets to fall over. In forgetting to fall over, he's forgotten to end his turn.

I don't know if it's a problem with the Overwatch or the combination of lethal versus non-lethal or just the same issue as above (even though it wasn't my turn next).

(https://scontent.fmel1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-0/q88/s480x480/20229327_1772411439455476_8158955233987251361_n.jpg?oh=de481b28acb44cf458c09961ae51499c&oe=5A0E1F94)
: Re: Enemy not releasing his turn
: Daithi July 24, 2017, 09:35:08 AM
Thanks for the info. I'd expect a few issues with overwatch I didn't dig up on my own testing. This looks like it might be a few different things - I'll get started on finding these.
: Re: [Fix Req] Enemy not releasing his turn
: Daithi July 24, 2017, 02:12:01 PM
Long shot here: was the danger level of (any/all of) these tiles 1? I added in the code to prevent enemies healing in danger level 1 tiles, and just had something similar happen. It's possible part of the problem, perhaps in the non overwatch instance?
: Re: [Fix Req] Enemy not releasing his turn
: ushas July 24, 2017, 09:39:03 PM
So you've decided to cripple the AI after all?  :(

@Nomad, do you happen to have logs saved from any of those instances? It often contains errors like out of range exceptions, also the danger lvl info, or so. So many freezes, kudos to your breaking skills!  :D
: Re: [Fix Req] Enemy not releasing his turn
: Nomad July 25, 2017, 02:11:30 AM
I believe that these are all Danger 1 level tiles.
I also believe you've already got it sorted... as I've read your post in the "Vigilantes Version 19: What's Happening?" thread.

@Ushas: lol... I have no idea. If saving the log involves actually doing something, then no.  =}
: Re: [Fix Req] Enemy not releasing his turn
: Daithi July 25, 2017, 07:18:07 AM
So you've decided to cripple the AI after all?  :(

@Nomad, do you happen to have logs saved from any of those instances? It often contains errors like out of range exceptions, also the danger lvl info, or so. So many freezes, kudos to your breaking skills!  :D

Just for danger level 1 - it's likely that there will be a larger range of danger levels going forward. You think it's a bad idea?

To get the log, exit the game when the bug happens, and check here: C:\Users\username\AppData\Local\Unity\Editor\Editor.log

If you don't want to sift through the log for the error, often a null pointer exception, or argument out of range, send it on to me :)
: Re: [Fix Req] Enemy not releasing his turn
: Daithi July 25, 2017, 07:19:18 AM
I'll try to turn up the overwatch issues today - it looks like they mostly occur when multiple characters are in overwatch
: Re: [Fix Req] Enemy not releasing his turn
: Daithi July 25, 2017, 12:06:26 PM
Most probably a combination of the healing error, and this bug: http://timeslipsoftworks.com/forum/index.php/topic,354.0.html

Closing for now, will move back if there are any further problems.
: Re: [Resolved] Enemy not releasing his turn
: ushas July 25, 2017, 01:33:20 PM
I've downloaded the win version, installed and run under wine on linux, but haven't found such tree created yet.

Nomad, just in case you want to look up the log in future and only if can't find it where Daithi said, maybe trying the player's log locations would work. It can be something like:
C:\Program Files (x86)\VigilantesV18Win\Vigilantes18_Data\
or:
C:\Users\username\AppData\LocalLow\Timeslip Softworks\VigilantesV18\

The name of the file:
output_log.txt    or    Player.log
etc.

Usually, I quick-quit and rename the log into something colorful describing what happened (otherwise the game will overwrite the log next time), then open in text editor and search for "exception" word:) An error will be probably somewhere near the end. Sending to Daithi is perhaps the most effective though.
: Re: [Resolved] Enemy not releasing his turn
: Nomad July 26, 2017, 02:49:13 AM
Ok. No worries. Thanks for the info.
Next time I get a crash I'll try to remember to catch the log (I'm sure it will become second nature after I've done it a few times).
: Re: [Resolved] Enemy not releasing his turn
: Nomad August 20, 2017, 12:00:01 AM
I've revealed all of the map (minus any intel that has degraded).
I went back to the top and picked a Danger 1 Cult map.
They had pistols (so I assume they've got a facility nearby).
I put all my team on overwatch.
The cultists moved, were fired upon and returned fired.
The last cultist refused to hand over her turn (she wasn't injured).
: Re: [Resolved] Enemy not releasing his turn
: Nomad August 20, 2017, 07:51:04 AM
Mafia enemy failed to finish turn.
Danger 3 Mafia map.

No one was on Overwatch. My team started, surrounded, in the middle of the map and we've had a couple of rounds fighting our way toward a defensible position.
(https://scontent.fadl1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/20954002_1800301883333098_7999513391103080423_n.jpg?oh=044a52683527665f630660c6ca6a414d&oe=5A3620C5)
Edit: I forgot which key brings up the map name. I thought it was M, but that doesn't do anything.
: Re: [Resolved] Enemy not releasing his turn
: Nomad August 20, 2017, 08:20:43 AM
As I mentioned in my question regarding unarmed Mafia enemies...
Danger level 3, High Wealth map. Unarmed Mafia lady ran up to Elena and then did nothing (failed to end her turn).
I'd already killed two unarmed Mafia people. There are five Mafia left.
A tougher Mafia guy pulled a rifle at the back and took a shot and hit.
Woman Mafia ran up to Elena, who had just been hit, and didn't end turn.
Ray would be next (if he had a turn).
: Re: [Resolved] Enemy not releasing his turn
: Nomad August 20, 2017, 08:42:42 AM
Another Mafia woman failed to hand over her turn.
If it wasn't for the issue occurring with a Cultist earlier, I'd assume it was all a Mafia problem.

The mini-boss at the back (on the right of the screen) had just pulled out his big rifle and taken a shot (he missed). Then the person below him on the screen took a shot.
Then the burning woman ran out of the fire (she was at the top-right in the fire patch) and did nothing.
This time there's another two Mafia before it's Ray's turn.

This is a Danger 3 Mafia map with High Wealth.
Medikit problem? Then why are they running up to my people first? I don't know what they're thinking.

(https://scontent.fadl1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/20953545_1800332379996715_2352780013235626120_n.jpg?oh=d1a6b0b2a68f365a8be63bcb8c003e6d&oe=5A15432A)
: Re: [Resolved] Enemy not releasing his turn
: ushas August 20, 2017, 07:50:20 PM
Do you remember whether some of those units were acting at the end of the queue?
If not, perhaps will know who acted first and last in those battles you included images for - you or enemies?

Trying to assess whether any of that has something to do with end of queue proceedings...

However, also suspecting there are more issues at play. For example, this screenshot of yours:
Another Mafia woman failed to hand over her turn.
If it wasn't for the issue occurring with a Cultist earlier, I'd assume it was all a Mafia problem.

The mini-boss at the back (on the right of the screen) had just pulled out his big rifle and taken a shot (he missed). Then the person below him on the screen took a shot.
Then the burning woman ran out of the fire (she was at the top-right in the fire patch) and did nothing.
This time there's another two Mafia before it's Ray's turn.

This is a Danger 3 Mafia map with High Wealth.
Medikit problem? Then why are they running up to my people first? I don't know what they're thinking.

(https://scontent.fadl1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/20953545_1800332379996715_2352780013235626120_n.jpg?oh=d1a6b0b2a68f365a8be63bcb8c003e6d&oe=5A15432A)
has one very suspicious fellow there... fire! In the past, subtracting fire damage was also source of some issues, esp. when at the end of the queue. I guess the guy, who is about to act after the girl, is the one on fire and he is going to die. But could be just coincidence.

As a side note, from peeking into the log during previous versions, it can pretty much freeze at different stages. So it may as well be the guy's turn already, you just don't see the queue portraits moved to the next one yet, and vice versa.

Whereas, this other screen:
Mafia enemy failed to finish turn.
Danger 3 Mafia map.

No one was on Overwatch. My team started, surrounded, in the middle of the map and we've had a couple of rounds fighting our way toward a defensible position.
(https://scontent.fadl1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/20954002_1800301883333098_7999513391103080423_n.jpg?oh=044a52683527665f630660c6ca6a414d&oe=5A3620C5)
has a lady at the bottom right corner, who looks like she just got spawned into the map... Then the question is, whether the next one to act is at the end of the queue and it's her. Though I could be wrong. The point is, may or may not be related to the issue of freezing at enemy spawn:
http://timeslipsoftworks.com/forum/index.php/topic,386

If you are game for crazy tests, Nomad, then when happens the next could you try pressing end turn key? The most mostest it won't do anything (enemy's turn). But it did helped me when I was deliberately having Ray with low initiative (aka at the end of queue), and it was his turn that couldn't be ended...

Btw. the maps of the pictures are:
DowntownMed2, Map 5
ChinaTownGraveyard1, Map 17
: Re: [Resolved] Enemy not releasing his turn
: Nomad August 21, 2017, 02:24:20 AM
There you go.
They may be all completely different issues.
Could be that the fire guy is going to die and therefore can't decide what to do about it. Just head toward the light little buddy.

Might be a spawn issue on the other one. We'd played a couple of rounds, so that person should have moved from there if they were already on the map.

Others crashed on the enemy before Ray. He is likely to be toward the end of the queue, which means the enemy wasn't at the end of the queue.
I'll try hitting End Turn next time I get a freeze.
: Re: [Resolved] Enemy not releasing his turn
: Nomad August 21, 2017, 12:51:03 PM
Another one.
Round just started. Sam went first and shot. Hit the Mafia in the middle.
Boss shot with his rifle (there's that rifle again).
Then the woman on my left moved up into my face.
I expected her to shoot... but nothing happened.
Only Sam and the mini-boss mafia guy have shot so it's definitely not an end-of-round issue.

The rifle being fired by the tougher mafia guy seems suspicious. That has preceded more than one lock-up. He fires, someone moves and doesn't end.

(https://scontent.fadl1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/20914220_1801462946550325_7228767316517529120_n.jpg?oh=2c97fcbbbaea7dc8c80c831a0e8a4d24&oe=5A214EA2)
: Re: [Resolved] Enemy not releasing his turn
: Nomad August 21, 2017, 01:43:42 PM
Ok... I'm the start of the queue.
This is round 2.

I think it's a weapon/AP thing.
The Mafia ran right up to me, then turned as though to attack. Then nothing.
Might want to check that they have enough AP for the gun they have. Maybe they think it costs 3 when it costs 4 or something?
Each freeze seems to be when they want to attack, but can't for some reason.

(https://scontent.fadl1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/20953976_1801505156546104_631776282734836954_n.jpg?oh=14212feb1e8b64a6aa15e442ddb906fb&oe=5A17DD5B)
: Re: [Resolved] Enemy not releasing his turn
: Daithi August 21, 2017, 03:14:42 PM
Thanks for reporting. If you can get this to happen again, can you exit and get the log file and email it to me? Would be a big help in narrowing it down - it's really hard to say from a screenshot what might be at play. The log file should be here on windows: C:\Users\Daithi\AppData\Local\Unity\Editor\Editor.txt
: Re: [Resolved] Enemy not releasing his turn
: ushas August 21, 2017, 04:36:47 PM
Hm... Nomad, you're onto something with closing enemies and the gear...
Like some detective mystery, clues right in front. :)

Anyway, I slept for many days till like August 1st, Vigilante difficulty. Couldn't get freeze at Mafia with rifles, but could on tiles with Churchers.

What I saw is similar to what you've been describing the whole time. In my case the encounter is all churchers with pistols. One of them was near and instead of shooting (from 2 tiles away with clear view) decided to come next to Sam, and pulled out... pistol (see attached image). Then... nothing. So went into the log and there is... no error.

But the last section suspiciously looks like she is in the melee setup and successfully attacked Sam with bladed weapon:
:
CharacterAIScript.ExecuteNextOrder. This order is a melee order
CharacterMainScript.AISwitchToItemAtPos. Method called. Item pos is: 1 item name: Abramovich 9
CharacterMovementScript.AnimateEquipmentChange. Method called. Last equipment type: 0 current equip type: 4 weapon list pos: 12
CharacterMovementScript.AnimateEquipmentChange. Method called. current equipment type is: 4
CharMoveScript.AnimatePistolDraw. Method called
BattleControlScript.DisablePlayerInputForSeconds. Method called
CharacterMovementScript.AnimateEquipmentChange. Player input disabled for 1H Ranged Draw. Time is: 53.71826
WeaponListObjectScript.ActivateWeaponGameObject. Method called. Requested weapon position is: 12 ik Position: 2
IKScript.SetCurrentIKPosition. Method called. Position is: 2
WeaponListObjectScript.ActivateWeaponGameObject. Current spawn point is: (13.8, 0.9, -21.5)
BattleControlScript.EnablePlayerInput. Time is: 54.6 time until user input enabled: 54.57326
BattleControlScript.EnablePlayerInput. Time is: 54.6 time until user input enabled: 54.57326 ENABLING
CharMainScript.SetupMeleeAttack. Body part damage modifier: 1 / is overwatch attack: False / is AOO: False
CharacterMainScript.SetupMeleeAttack. Character Sam Contino is not already on list. Adding
Item.ApplyDeteriorationFromUse. Method called. Item condition %: 0.98
BCS.GetMeleeCTH. Attacker Melee Skill: 45 / defence from melee 22.5 / defense from armour 0 / defense from evasion: 9 / attack rating: 1.428571 / melee multiplier: 37.5 bodyPart CTH Multipler:1 use mode CTH multiplier:1 / final chance to hit: 53
CharacterMainScript.SetupMeleeAtack. Bladed attack. Apply bladed damage multiplier (1.08) to existing attack damage: 7.5
CharMainScript.SetupMeleeAttack. Attack damage is: 7.7517 defender HP: 41
Item.ReturnDamageAfterResistance. Damage is: 7.7517 / damage type: 0
Item.ReturnDamageAfterResistance. Start Damage: 7.7517 /armour condition %: 1 /absorbed 0 /resisted: 0 /damage applied: 7.7517
BCS.GetObstructedTileArray. Checking tile (11.0, 18.0)
BCS.GetObstructedTile. Not including opponent tile (12.0, 17.0) in obstructed tile list
BCS.GetObstructedTileArray. Checking tile (12.0, 17.0)
BCS.GetObstructedTile. Tile: 12 / 16 is obstructed
BCS.GetObstructedTile. Not including opponent tile (11.0, 18.0) in obstructed tile list
CharMainScript.SetupMeleeAttack. is orthagonal: False
CharacterMainScript.SetupMeleeAttack. Defender animation type is: 0 attacker animation type is: 4

After quitting the game, there was also this line:
:
CharacterMainScript.UpdateReachableTiles. Method called for: Sister Nedosekov AP left: -1 Use mode AP: 4
Not sure if helps anything. I dunno, a wrong weapon pulled, weapon mode, or wrong animation type, or a hole in equipment tiers, AI problem...?
: Re: [Resolved] Enemy not releasing his turn
: Daithi August 21, 2017, 04:51:30 PM
Nice work. Seems to be a problem with the equipment type not being updated when they change weapons. Trying melee attacks with a pistol. I guess we don't have to worry about the AI escaping and taking over the world... Also a problem is that not all churchers should have guns - it's likely counter productive for them to do so. Any chance you can send me the save and the tile you attacked, if I ask really nicely, Ushas? Pretty please :)
: Re: [Resolved] Enemy not releasing his turn
: ushas August 21, 2017, 06:15:01 PM
I don't know, we're breaking really big here, especially Nomad in this thread... And you just come asking, pretty nicely on top of that, for sending you logs and saves - the things we should have sent in the first place... Are you some sort of game developer?  ;D

(yeah, sorry, will send shortly)
: Re: [Resolved] Enemy not releasing his turn
: Nomad August 22, 2017, 05:35:29 AM
I can't find a Unity directory anywhere in my user directory. I even searched my entire C: drive and though I found several Unity folders, they were all within specific game directories except one... which had a completely different folder structure (I think it's for yet another game).

I did a search of my entire C: drive for Editor.txt and came up blank.
I checked the Vigilantes game directory (on my D: drive) and found no TXT files at all.

I can't find this log file.

Hopefully Ushas supplied what you need because I can't find it... and my last save won't be any help because when I go into the same mission I get a different map.

I'm pretty sure it's a weapon/attack problem based on how the enemy behaves before hanging.

Edit: I searched my entire games drive (D:) and found two Editor.txt files. One is from 17/10/2005 and the other is from 14/10/1998 (Railroad Tycoon 2).

I simply do not have the Editor.txt file on my computer for your game.
: Re: [Resolved] Enemy not releasing his turn
: Daithi August 22, 2017, 10:48:13 AM
Ah ok, no problem. What version of windows are you using?
: Re: [Resolved] Enemy not releasing his turn
: ushas August 22, 2017, 10:55:58 AM
Such valiant effort! (hello fellow tycoonist)

@Daithi, isn't that Editor.txt file only for a debug version of the game or so?

Hopefully Ushas supplied what you need because I can't find it... and my last save won't be any help because when I go into the same mission I get a different map.
Sent autosave prior the battle and the player log post the freeze. The problem is, if you re-launch the game afterwards it will rewrite this file. So it's useful only right after the bug occurrence.
 
As for the one I was talking about:
It can be something like:
C:\Program Files (x86)\VigilantesV18Win\Vigilantes18_Data\
or:
C:\Users\username\AppData\LocalLow\Timeslip Softworks\VigilantesV18\

The name of the file:
output_log.txt    or    Player.log
etc..

I'm pretty sure it's a weapon/attack problem based on how the enemy behaves before hanging.
Yeah, I think you nailed it. Looking at all those pictures, thinking how could I be so blind... It was always the one next to you!:)
: Re: [Resolved] Enemy not releasing his turn
: Daithi August 22, 2017, 11:02:15 AM
Whoops, Ushas is right on that editor is the version which Unity makes when run inside the editor ... sorry Nomad, looks like I sent you on a wild goose chase :/

It appears to be here: C:\Program Files (x86)\VigilantesV19Win\Vigilantes19Win_Data\Output_log
: Re: [Resolved] Enemy not releasing his turn
: Daithi August 23, 2017, 01:31:37 PM
Looking at this now on Ushas' save. Bug has been recreated.

I'm pretty sure it's a weapon/attack problem based on how the enemy behaves before hanging.

This looks to be spot on - the first thing that's jumping out is that the church characters have 2 unarmed items, which is likely the cause of the problem. Seems that a nearby racket is boosting their equipment level, and there's an error causing 2 unarmed items to be equipped. Couple of other take aways: they have a lot of cash (9247), have built 3 rackets, and have not increased their equipment level, so will increase racket cost, decrease racket income, and encourage them to buy some equipment upgrades.

In contrast, the survivalists have purchases 2 equipment upgrades and have equipment level 4, compared to the churches level 0.
: Re: [Resolved] Enemy not releasing his turn
: ushas August 23, 2017, 02:32:38 PM
Would our play matter somehow in this, like if wasn't a nuisance at all before?
Because I really slept like ~20 days without fighting with anybody. I don't even remember whether, except the initial one, undertook any mission against Churchers. It's possible that all previous battles earlier in game were against Mafia and Survivalists. Not sure though.
: Re: [Resolved] Enemy not releasing his turn
: Daithi August 23, 2017, 02:37:30 PM
Took a while, but this was being caused by a facility increasing equipment level of gang medkits, except it was actually incrementing the equipment type (resulting in an extra unarmed item), rather than improving the first aid kit quality. Nice work Nomad and Ushas for the clues for solving this one!
: Re: [Resolved] Enemy not releasing his turn
: Daithi August 23, 2017, 02:39:38 PM
Would our play matter somehow in this, like if wasn't a nuisance at all before?
Because I really slept like ~20 days without fighting with anybody. I don't even remember whether, except the initial one, undertook any mission against Churchers. It's possible that all previous battles earlier in game were against Mafia and Survivalists. Not sure though.

Yeah, it would be a factor, but I've suspected there would be a problem here. Having max number of facilities in 1 month, even if largely unhindered by player is too fast.
: Re: [Resolved] Enemy not releasing his turn
: ushas August 23, 2017, 03:14:56 PM
Aha! Who would suspect medkids...
The same for Mafia I suppose?

Yeah, it would be a factor, but I've suspected there would be a problem here. Having max number of facilities in 1 month, even if largely unhindered by player is too fast.
Naturally, some tuning is to be expected.
How long do you expect the whole campaign can last?
: Re: [Resolved] Enemy not releasing his turn
: Daithi August 23, 2017, 04:46:41 PM
Will move this back for now until mafia issue has been checked into more - I'm not getting a crash for Mafia - they haven't gotten an upgrade for medkits. Have you had any crashes when fighting mafia?

@Nomad - any chance you could send on your save file so I can have a look at it?
: Re: [Resolved] Enemy not releasing his turn
: ushas August 23, 2017, 05:25:38 PM
Have you had any crashes when fighting mafia?
No. Will hunt.
: Re: [Resolved] Enemy not releasing his turn
: Daithi August 23, 2017, 05:30:57 PM
Guess would be that the mafia have improved their first aid kits, and caused the same issue, but it hasn't happened on your save, yet has on Nomad's save.
: Re: [Nomad - Can you help?] Enemy not releasing his turn
: Nomad August 28, 2017, 01:58:32 PM
I hope my save was of some use to you.

It should also give you an idea of my progression.
You can see how much of the map I have revealed and how many Lieutenants I've gotten information on.
I've gotten info on Survivalist and Mafia Lieutenants number 4 (at 33% detection each).
Compare that to my advancement, their advancement and the in-game date, and that should give you some feedback.
Mind you... my interrogations haven't been going great. I haven't used a single interrogation drug so far (this game).

Edit: You can also see how much I've spent on Workshop facilities so far.
: Re: [Nomad - Can you help?] Enemy not releasing his turn
: Daithi August 28, 2017, 02:38:28 PM
Cheers Nomad! I'm adding weapons at the minute, hope to add another 10 or so weapons in this update - will go back to fixing again in the next few days. Yes, very useful to get a feel for how player progress is - can i ask how many hours roughly you have clocked up on that save? Think that gang leader and racket detection is too slow by the sounds of it. This could be addressed by reducing number of intel pieces required (3->2) and allowing you to occasionally get better intel from basic enemies.
: Re: [Nomad - Can you help?] Enemy not releasing his turn
: ushas August 28, 2017, 03:44:31 PM
Huh, weapons before EA?
How many do you plan to have in the final release?

Think that gang leader and racket detection is too slow by the sounds of it. This could be addressed by reducing number of intel pieces required (3->2) and allowing you to occasionally get better intel from basic enemies.
I might be wrong - doesn't it depend how probable is to get a higher ranked one for interrogation? Had missions against specialists, but only once was able to interrogate one. Usually it gives basic troops. If random, makes a sense. But perhaps upping weights based on rank is more realistic?
: Re: [Nomad - Can you help?] Enemy not releasing his turn
: Daithi August 28, 2017, 08:11:39 PM
Huh, weapons before EA?
How many do you plan to have in the final release?

Content is likely the single area with the biggest gap between current and final, so yeah, trying to get a few more in. Have most of images etc, so it's mostly just adding the data. In final, likely 2x as many items as will be in this update.

I might be wrong - doesn't it depend how probable is to get a higher ranked one for interrogation? Had missions against specialists, but only once was able to interrogate one. Usually it gives basic troops. If random, makes a sense. But perhaps upping weights based on rank is more realistic?

I set it to pick highest ranked character not killed for interrogation in V19, but I might have missed something. If you kill everyone, you should rifle the pockets of the highest ranked...
: Re: [Nomad - Can you help?] Enemy not releasing his turn
: ushas August 28, 2017, 09:53:12 PM
I set it to pick highest ranked character not killed for interrogation in V19, but I might have missed something. If you kill everyone, you should rifle the pockets of the highest ranked...
Ok. Let's not believe my treacherous memory. Probably works as you said. There are many aspects at play that might influence perception. Think what I wanted to say is that in 13 regular missions on the main path of Vigilante difficulty so far (btw. not killing this time) got intel on Lieutenants once, otherwise only tiles. What I perceived as specialists may not be promoted yet, or if I got them into interrogation -> wasn't lucky to get intel... I suppose, as the game goes we will see them more and more often? So perhaps promotions is something to keep an eye on as well? 

Also, usually letting some enemy flee if possible.
: Re: [Nomad - Can you help?] Enemy not releasing his turn
: Daithi August 29, 2017, 10:07:14 AM
Ok. Let's not believe my treacherous memory. Probably works as you said. There are many aspects at play that might influence perception. Think what I wanted to say is that in 13 regular missions on the main path of Vigilante difficulty so far (btw. not killing this time) got intel on Lieutenants once, otherwise only tiles. What I perceived as specialists may not be promoted yet, or if I got them into interrogation -> wasn't lucky to get intel... I suppose, as the game goes we will see them more and more often? So perhaps promotions is something to keep an eye on as well? 

Also, usually letting some enemy flee if possible.

Let's not believe my treacherous programming ability either :) Increasing promotion chance is certainly possible, or revising how it happens. Would be wary to make too many of them appear early in the game. Yes, you will see Tier2 troops more often as the game continues. Intel on lieutenants/rackets should be slow starting out, but would hope this would increase over time. It's something I'd be interested in feedback on in relation to number of missions/time spent.

Another possibility is providing a piece of intel as a result of a dialogue encounter.
: Re: [Nomad - Can you help?] Enemy not releasing his turn
: Nomad August 30, 2017, 04:39:10 AM
Yes, very useful to get a feel for how player progress is - can i ask how many hours roughly you have clocked up on that save?

Feedback is very useful... of course it is... let me help.
How many hours?... err... let me see... I'm pretty sure it was a LOT.
Note the capital LOT. It wasn't a lot, it was a LOT. Yup... a LOT of hours in that play.
Was that useful? I HOPE so.

I might give you the impression that I'm not sure about time played. Might be an idea to go by game calendar instead. You know how much time actions take, so hopefully that will be sufficient.
I would guess I was doing about 4-8 hours a day. I probably did... a bunch of days...
Hmm... I guess the short answer is... I don't really know. Not to mention that there were many lock-ups that required me to kill the game and replay maps.


Edit: Oh... and I love the idea of maybe getting some info via a dialogue encounter.
Either via a skill-based check...
Or... even another one where the dialogue leads to either some info on a lieutenant or a piece of equipment or some cash or something?
: Re: [Nomad - Can you help?] Enemy not releasing his turn
: ushas August 30, 2017, 11:50:37 AM
Another possibility is providing a piece of intel as a result of a dialogue encounter.
From spoiler reasons didn't want to pry your plans with them, how combat and non-combat NPCs will influence the campaign, but always thought this as one of their purposes. But probably because talking about interrogations and dialogue encounters, before you implemented them, led me mistakenly think it will be like in Shadow Watch (i.e. scripted interrogations as non-combat encounters in between combat ones, where dialogue options may lead to different clues and missions). Now seeing it's simulation-strategy approach, of course.

Barbarians don't even influence district parameters, AFAIK, so naturally one would expect some sort of closure later?

Note the capital LOT. It wasn't a lot, it was a LOT. Yup... a LOT of hours in that play.
Was that useful? I HOPE so.
Tbh. your perception of time spend to be "a LOT" may as well be more useful information than exact playtime with nanosecond precision.

Am preliminary thinking that the progress is a bit slow, indeed. Also in comparison to how fast our party is leveling and some enemies are tier 4 equipment or so, yet haven't caught a lieutenant or found a facility...

That said I see no problem overall, seems wheels underneath function well. Naturally, to reach satisfactory balance entails a bit of iterating upon, but I suspect it's easily achievable with a fair number of parameters at disposal Daithi has.


Content is likely the single area with the biggest gap between current and final, so yeah, trying to get a few more in. Have most of images etc, so it's mostly just adding the data. In final, likely 2x as many items as will be in this update.
If I may, would suggest adding primarily items diverse from those already in (opposite are upgrades, for example, eg. two assault rifles we already have). Just thought that content - like missions, perks, allies, items, crafting,..., might actually suit EA. To keep people interested with a new stuff... There is always demand for more items. If you add too much now, could have worse position later? To be clear - just musing aloud, totally clueless here.
: Re: [Nomad - Can you help?] Enemy not releasing his turn
: Daithi September 04, 2017, 04:24:07 PM
I might give you the impression that I'm not sure about time played. Might be an idea to go by game calendar instead. You know how much time actions take, so hopefully that will be sufficient.
I would guess I was doing about 4-8 hours a day. I probably did... a bunch of days...
Hmm... I guess the short answer is... I don't really know. Not to mention that there were many lock-ups that required me to kill the game and replay maps.


Edit: Oh... and I love the idea of maybe getting some info via a dialogue encounter.
Either via a skill-based check...
Or... even another one where the dialogue leads to either some info on a lieutenant or a piece of equipment or some cash or something?

Would I be correct that the game never froze up vs survivalists, outside of any potential overwatch bugs? On checking the save file, both Mafia & Churchers had the upgrade that was causing problem, but not survivalists. I'll test the mafia pre and post fix, just to be sure.

Progress is almost certainly too slow, even given 8 hours play. Need to increase the rate at which intel is gained at quite considerably, though it's likely you will encounter first lieutenant without needing intel. Getting info through dialogue encounter will almost certainly happen. Have added code to allow cash, but will also add intel.

Just thought that content - like missions, perks, allies, items, crafting,..., might actually suit EA. To keep people interested with a new stuff... There is always demand for more items. If you add too much now, could have worse position later? To be clear - just musing aloud, totally clueless here.

I'd say that makes sense. Might pull a few of the items from this update :)
: Re: [Nomad - Can you help?] Enemy not releasing his turn
: Daithi September 04, 2017, 06:27:18 PM
I checked Nomad's save, and the same issue that was present with the churchers was in play with Mafia. Encountered 2 freezes in two levels. Nothing since fixed.
: Re: [Nomad - Can you help?] Enemy not releasing his turn
: Nomad September 04, 2017, 11:03:45 PM
Would I be correct that the game never froze up vs survivalists, outside of any potential overwatch bugs?
That sounds about right.
I don't believe I had any issues other than the end-of-turn lockup.

Just thought that content - like missions, perks, allies, items, crafting,..., might actually suit EA. To keep people interested with a new stuff... There is always demand for more items. If you add too much now, could have worse position later? To be clear - just musing aloud, totally clueless here.
I both agree with and dislike this idea. Holding stuff back and trickle-feeding it with each new update might be the way to go so that progress looks steady and solid.
I don't like the idea of holding things back... but perception is a big thing. And besides... it's not like you're holding it back and then charging for it as DLC. That's where I'm getting my negative perception from. So, overall, I think it's a valid suggestion.
: Re: [Nomad - Can you help?] Enemy not releasing his turn
: Daithi September 04, 2017, 11:28:08 PM
I both agree with and dislike this idea. Holding stuff back and trickle-feeding it with each new update might be the way to go so that progress looks steady and solid.
I don't like the idea of holding things back... but perception is a big thing. And besides... it's not like you're holding it back and then charging for it as DLC. That's where I'm getting my negative perception from. So, overall, I think it's a valid suggestion.

I guess that's more or less been the way it's been going so far with content, moreso maps and to some extent perks. It's been a while since there were new weapons. Think there are enough items still to add to keep the new ones in the update, though I think the idea of adding new content with every update is sound - part of the idea of removing them was to obviate the need for testing them, to save time, but it's not a huge job.

Am with you on DLC. Pretty much never buy it, though it's existence isn't the sort of thing that would keep me awake at night. If did do something for Vigilantes (and it's unlikely for most possible outcomes) it would be more along the lines of an one shot expansion pack, like the hefty ones of days of yore. None of this "Sam's new balaclava DLC" crap. 
: Re: [Nomad - Can you help?] Enemy not releasing his turn
: Nomad September 06, 2017, 03:36:25 AM
lol
Yeah... well.. it also comes down to pricing.
I agree with the old method of Expansions. They were generally worth the money.
DLC is generally overpriced for what it is.

Like, nowadays it would cost $5 for a balaclava skin, new outfit and two new weapons. If you got that for $1, then people might be less inclined to hate on it.

Microtransactions ($1 or less) very quickly turned into macrotransactions ($5+).
: Re: [Nomad - Can you help?] Enemy not releasing his turn
: Daithi September 06, 2017, 09:59:01 AM
In the unlikely event that I did go down the expansion route, would be inclined to expand game mechanics, add a decent variety of new maps, weapons, perks, an ally, and encounters at a reasonable price (maybe around €5). It doesn't seem very likely however.
: Re: [Nomad - Can you help?] Enemy not releasing his turn
: Nomad September 07, 2017, 03:21:18 AM
Yeah. I figured this was a stand alone.
Sounds like you already have ideas for another property.
: Re: [Nomad - Can you help?] Enemy not releasing his turn
: Daithi September 07, 2017, 10:46:15 AM
Ideas are fairly easy to come by, and development is incredibly slow, so have enough of them to cover a decade of development. The trick will be choosing the right one :)
: Re: [Nomad - Can you help?] Enemy not releasing his turn
: ushas September 08, 2017, 03:23:23 AM
The trick will be choosing the right one :)
Abraka random dabra.

I both agree with and dislike this idea. Holding stuff back and trickle-feeding it with each new update might be the way to go so that progress looks steady and solid.
I don't like the idea of holding things back... but perception is a big thing. And besides... it's not like you're holding it back and then charging for it as DLC. That's where I'm getting my negative perception from. So, overall, I think it's a valid suggestion.
Yeah. I understand what you're getting it from. There is a thin line between things to be walked...
One may say it's not the same because Daithi is not holding back from the final version, just prioritizing when its done. But I have a feeling that EA is a sort of final for some. I mean just imagine EA (cheaper) as final release and the other one as definitive edition... Now you can interpret it as holding back for money. Gaming the system is practically required to survive it. One may at least do it respectfully.

My thinking was only theorizing, under two very hypothetical assumptions: if there is a final number of items to be included and if customers always ask for more regardless what's in -> then Daithi may potentially harm his image when adding too much in advance and then refusing the request. On the other hand, the initial release is the most important. Makes sense to maximize with the most gameplay enhancing. In other words, I'm playing with spherical chickens in vacuum.   

Besides DLCs are punishment for weak-willed.

PS: No survivalist left frozen here too.
: Re: [Nomad - Can you help?] Enemy not releasing his turn
: Daithi September 08, 2017, 10:17:23 AM
Yeah. I understand what you're getting it from. There is a thin line between things to be walked...
One may say it's not the same because Daithi is not holding back from the final version, just prioritizing when its done. But I have a feeling that EA is a sort of final for some. I mean just imagine EA (cheaper) as final release and the other one as definitive edition... Now you can interpret it as holding back for money. Gaming the system is practically required to survive it. One may at least do it respectfully.

My thinking was only theorizing, under two very hypothetical assumptions: if there is a final number of items to be included and if customers always ask for more regardless what's in -> then Daithi may potentially harm his image when adding too much in advance and then refusing the request. On the other hand, the initial release is the most important. Makes sense to maximize with the most gameplay enhancing. In other words, I'm playing with spherical chickens in vacuum.   

Besides DLCs are punishment for weak-willed.

PS: No survivalist left frozen here too.

Yeah, I haven't deliberately been holding back items. Everything (features, content, tweaking, fixes) is being added in increments. On the content front, maps get the most attention, because they take ages and will feel more at ease when closer to target. Pretty much what ushas is saying, but it would seem like a bad idea to launch with all items, because EA players will have nothing to look forward to on that front.
: Re: [Nomad - Can you help?] Enemy not releasing his turn
: ushas September 08, 2017, 05:23:37 PM
Of course, there is a lot to consider, most not visible on outside I guess.


Having a feeling those churchers trying to stab us with pistols, they were onto something after all...
They were developing Pistol Bayonet!
(https://gun.deals/sites/default/files/pb3_1_large.jpg)

Somebody with a high enough crafting skill...
Having blade as well as pistol weapon modes at close range...
: Re: [Nomad - Can you help?] Enemy not releasing his turn
: Daithi September 08, 2017, 05:32:21 PM
No problem adding it... if you want to make a new set of animations for it :) Just don't forget that new impacts, dodges, and KOs will probably be required. And remember, that different range is required for orth and diagonal tiles. And that it takes almost a full (and very tedious) day to get the timing right for each attack animation to impact / dodge / KO.  #LivingInFearOfGettingAZipFullOfPistolBayonetAnimations
: Re: [Nomad - Can you help?] Enemy not releasing his turn
: ushas September 08, 2017, 08:36:34 PM
#UnsureHowToDoHashThingButWantedToPutYourMindAtEaseByTellingYouFirstWillGetAZipFullOfPlantingAMineAndExplodingBackpackAnimations

I take the guys hold pistols differently so can't use the ones for knife when doing bladed attacks? Or do you really do different animations for each weapon?
Not that I really care about bayonet item but it sounds interesting what you wrote. I remember you mentioned that this choreography is really tricky.
: Re: [Nomad - Can you help?] Enemy not releasing his turn
: ushas September 20, 2017, 12:43:31 PM
Np then. But in case you're truly worried or anything, I won't do any such thing.

Finally, for some time (from approx like ingame 14 Aug on Vigilante) I was also getting Mafia bugged at close as you described guys. It become tricky to do any mission against those two factions. So I'm battling mostly survivalists now. On yesterday's mission looted "Unarmed" on their lvl2 facility. Had no show stoppers with them, but thought I would rather mention if something.
: Re: [Nomad - Can you help?] Enemy not releasing his turn
: Daithi September 20, 2017, 01:19:12 PM
#UnsureHowToDoHashThingButWantedToPutYourMindAtEaseByTellingYouFirstWillGetAZipFullOfPlantingAMineAndExplodingBackpackAnimations

I take the guys hold pistols differently so can't use the ones for knife when doing bladed attacks? Or do you really do different animations for each weapon?
Not that I really care about bayonet item but it sounds interesting what you wrote. I remember you mentioned that this choreography is really tricky.

Noooooooo!

It would need to be tested, but it's very likely that the existing 1H attack animations wouldn't work for a bayonet pistol style attack. There are different sets of attack animations for unarmed, 1H melee & 2H melee. For KO, evade, hit animations, certain animations work for certain equipment types, but tend to cause obvious clipping with others. Very time intensive to avoid clipping and get decent timing from the attack to the response.
: Re: [Nomad - Can you help?] Enemy not releasing his turn
: Daithi September 20, 2017, 01:22:39 PM
Np then. But in case you're truly worried or anything, I won't do any such thing.

Finally, for some time (from approx like ingame 14 Aug on Vigilante) I was also getting Mafia bugged at close as you described guys. It become tricky to do any mission against those two factions. So I'm battling mostly survivalists now. On yesterday's mission looted "Unarmed" on their lvl2 facility. Had no show stoppers with them, but thought I would rather mention if something.

Ha, was just having fun (but a little worried too :)

The crash will be fixed in V20. Would suspect the unarmed item is probably a loot item (rather than something that has been dropped) and will keep it on the radar. Or maybe, it's a severed hand... Would hope to improve the loot system over next few updates, as the items are generally quite poor.
: Re: [Nomad - Can you help?] Enemy not releasing his turn
: ushas September 20, 2017, 05:38:22 PM
I might have been joking too, but won't say in which post of two...

Yeah, we've been even attacking each other at close at places, they had no problem switching to hands. And Sam has pretty sharp knife.
: Re: [Nomad - Can you help?] Enemy not releasing his turn
: Nomad September 20, 2017, 06:45:47 PM
Would suspect the unarmed item is probably a loot item (rather than something that has been dropped) and will keep it on the radar. Or maybe, it's a severed hand... Would hope to improve the loot system over next few updates, as the items are generally quite poor.

Hey... is it that Unarmed loot that I reported back when I first started playing? Is it an actual item and they're trying to use it?
: Re: [Nomad - Can you help?] Enemy not releasing his turn
: Daithi September 20, 2017, 06:52:56 PM
Hey... is it that Unarmed loot that I reported back when I first started playing? Is it an actual item and they're trying to use it?

Yep, same one, much to my shame. I think when it's looking for items to put in the loot containers at the end of the mission, it's pulling the unarmed weapon from the database. It's non harmful, as the item won't be added to your inventory, but will fix it when I (finally) get around to improving the loot algorithm.

Different from the additional unarmed item that mafia enemies had, and was causing a crash, that you reported.
: Re: [Nomad - Can you help?] Enemy not releasing his turn
: Nomad September 21, 2017, 12:15:04 PM
Ahh... right. Okies.  =)