Author Topic: Percentages of percentages  (Read 3553 times)

ushas

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Percentages of percentages
« on: June 16, 2017, 02:16:27 AM »
A ton of multiplications. It seems if there is some modifier, the chance is it will be more like x1.3 multiplier. It eventually translates into the feeling that one must specialize as much as possible, eg. Firearms or CC skill. Naturally, big numbers multiplied several times tend to skyrocket.

Although the game uses multipliers all over the systems, I'm choosing CTH to talk about due to how it translates, as discussed below, but also because in comparison to more traditional systems with additive (de)buffs, this approach complicates decision making and is harder to communicate intuitively. Is it worth it?

What seems working multiplicatively to certain extent: skill bonus, weapon cth, weapon modes, targeting, cover CTH bonus, inversely shot difficulty (distance and targets's/los modifiers?).

I believe all those could work as additive. So if there is any lowering CTH modifier it will be subtracted from the base % (like when wounded) and if it gives you bonus it should add (like Leader bonus, or Control Breathing perk), no multiplying each other, no percentages of percentages.


Reasoning using Ray and Sam as guinea pigs:
Ray (Firearms 49, lvl 11) & Sam (Firearms 101, lvl 12) will shoot at the same target, the same pos., and using the same weapons.

(1) Bonus multipliers help more skilled characters more. Higher the skill the better gain from bonuses - weapon cth bonus, skill, mode, cover.
   Just take a look at Sniping (Eurocorp Artemis, x1.20 weapon. multiplier) at distance 10:
   Ray: Snap: 36% Normal: 41% Aimed: 47%
       Snap -> Normal =  +5% CTH, cost +1 AP
       Snap -> Aimed  = +11% CTH, cost +2 AP
   Sam: Snap: 66% Normal: 75% Aimed: 87%
       Snap -> Normal =  +9% CTH, cost +1 AP
       Snap -> Aimed  = +21% CTH, cost +2 AP
    You see, Sam gets +10% cth when switches from Snap to Normal but Ray only +5%, while both paying +1AP. Ray already has Firearms 49, for lower skill it will be even worse comparison, then, why bother to use anything else than Snap?

(2) The impact of skill progression accelerates. So the fun fact is, although he gets the most out of it (+21% CTH for +2AP), at this stage Sam doesn't need Aimed much anymore. Together with cover, Normal mode suffice for most situations (easily getting 95% CTH for Snap at distance 6). Ray would know better how to utilize sweet +20% CTH.

(3) Higher skilled characters are more harmed by multiplicative debuffs (such as targeting, and inversely distance, obstructions and target's evasion)
  Let's take a head-shot (x0.75 multiplier) at various distances D with SMG Bellum (x0.8 multiplier):
  Ray: D1: 50% D4: 37% D6: 31% D10: 16% D17: 11% D25: 9%
      D1->D4  = -13% CTH
      D1->D6  = -19% CTH
      D6->D17 = -20% CTH
      D1->D17 = -39% CTH
  Sam: D1: 87% D4: 63% D6: 54% D10: 27% D17: 15% D25: 12%
      D1->D4  = -24% CTH
      D1->D6  = -33% CTH
      D6->D17 = -39% CTH
      D1->D17 = -72% CTH
    For distances D=1-6 they had a cover bonus and the enemy was in open, whereas for distances D=10-25 Sam and Ray were in open and the enemy was behind a cover. You can see the bigger downfall of more skilled character. When shooting at D=17 I wouln't guess that Sam's skills are twice of Ray's. Sam's fall from grace is even steeper with Prec. Rifle (D6->D17 = 37-95 = -58% CTH)... Would expect the other way when comparing to SMG, but, yeah, can't go around this unless the formula changes (eg. shot difficulty modifiers such as distance working as additive '-X%' instead of '/X' fashion).
   

Despite criticizing I'm not about to say multiplying is evil or anything:) I would more like recommend, in time, that it might help if you can go through your basic formulas and review how it all should work first, before balancing weapons and perks. Multiplying CTH % is just something I'm the most skeptical about.

Similarly could be possible to showcase how CTH and DAM multipliers influence CC. High skill is much more benefical to weapons with high base DAM, and those x1.2 multipliers only aggravate the difference. At this stage (lvl 11-12, HB) Survivalists with pistols are walk in park for my team with rifles.  Perhaps toning down the skill impact would help.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2017, 11:33:51 PM by ushas »

Daithi

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Re: Percentages of percentageS
« Reply #1 on: June 16, 2017, 01:29:57 PM »
Thanks for doing some math for me  ;D

Definitely something to think about here - it really does look like the effects of multiplication are too strong. Will absorb the info a bit more, but right off, getting the feeling that weapon modes should be additive.