Author Topic: Overwatch, Attacks of Opportunity  (Read 23569 times)


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Re: Overwatch, Attacks of Opportunity
« Reply #30 on: July 06, 2017, 08:00:15 PM »
Ah, I see how prepping for EA can easily last for several versions. Then it's good that you're already prioritizing for that.


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Re: Overwatch, Attacks of Opportunity
« Reply #31 on: July 07, 2017, 12:09:16 AM »
There seems to be no interest to discuss overwatch anymore, but my train seems to have very long braking distance.
So CTH thresholds - how those actually translate into distances?
Say the following are at play: 5+ (aka the whole map), 25+, 50+, 75+

Let's have overwatchers:
OV1: weapon - Abramovich, mode - Snap, no Leader buff, stands in open
OV2: weapon - Abramovich, mode - Normal, Leader buff (4), he's readied in cover

Then two identical targets, but one hides in cover:
TA1: Evasion 8, steps on a tile in open
TA2: Evasion 8, steps on a tile with directional cover (60)

The question is how far overwatch triggers. Below are some estimates, but I don't have the exact formula, so could be wrong. Based on testing during v16 perhaps not by much.

Overwatcher 1 (Snap, in open) --> Target 1 (in open):
                              CTH 05+        CTH 25+        CTH 50+        CTH 75+       
Skill 30LOS 6 tilesXX
Skill 60LOS11 tiles 6 tiles 1 tiles
Skill 90LOS15 tiles 9 tiles 6 tiles
Skill 120LOS19 tiles11 tiles 8 tiles

Overwatcher 2 (Normal, in cover) --> Target 1 (in open):
                              CTH 05+        CTH 25+        CTH 50+        CTH 75+       
Skill 30LOS11 tiles4X
Skill 60LOS17 tiles 9 tiles 6 tiles
Skill 90LOS24 tiles12 tiles 9 tiles
Skill 120LOS30 tiles15 tiles11 tiles

Overwatcher 1 (Snap, in open) --> Target 2 (direc. cover):
                              CTH 05+        CTH 25+        CTH 50+        CTH 75+       
Skill 30LOSXXX
Skill 60LOS 9 tilesXX
Skill 90LOS13 tiles 6 tilesX
Skill 120LOS17 tiles 9 tiles 4 tiles

Overwatcher 2 (Normal, in cover) --> Target 2 (direc. cover):
                              CTH 05+        CTH 25+        CTH 50+        CTH 75+       
Skill 30LOS 9 tilesXX
Skill 60LOS15 tiles 3 tilesX
Skill 90LOS22 tiles 8 tiles 2 tiles
Skill 120LOS28 tiles11 tiles 7 tiles

The use of thresholds depends on skill lvl and on circumstances (weapon, target). Obvious defense against triggering itself is to step on a tile with cover (does crouching count? I suppose directional part yes). Highly skilled shooters are needed here. Hm, that's Interesting. But not going to be swayed!

Although some things are fairly apparent, it's unclear to me if intended. Synthesis:
1) Threshold availability: With low skill it can boil to the lowest 1-2 options, one always being LOS, whilst 25+ fast rises to 10+ tiles. At skill 50 it can still happen 50+ threshold being unusable.
2) Distance usability: As skill increases options open up. However, corresponding distances increase too. If we want react only on targets at close it will become more and more impossible to set with higher skill, unless upping thresholds.
3) Targeting at close: Even with a fair selection it's difficult to manage when targeting close enemies, if they can step on a tile with cover. Say OV1 has skill 80. He will need to use CTH 50+ to be sure for targets moving within 4 tiles. But that also means if there is any other enemy stepping on a tile in open within 8 tiles, and he acts before the close ones, then it will trigger for him. Choosing CTH 75+ and risking not triggering at all -> you've wasted AP.
4) Weapon influence: Weapons have CTH modifiers. With Patriot+ distances will be bigger, more so for a prec. rifle. Rifles have this peculiarity with minimum effective range, so it can happen that the trigger area is an annulus with the min trigger radius > 1. Not bad itself, but it varies. For example, if OV2 he has skill 70 and uses CTH 75+ & Normandy & Aimed, then it triggers for TA2 only at exact distance 4 tiles, no more no less. That's some tricky business:) If has skill 90, at the most closest CTH 75+ it means reaction fire against all targets TA in open within 14 tiles.
Not saying some tactical maneuvering isn't possible, but this is fairly complex to do when triggering so much depends on the attacker & weapon & mode & target & queue constellation. In the end, I won't bother to spend energy needed for a good estimate to take advantage of options. Probably will only use highly skilled characters within the LOS or threshold encompassing targets within ~10 tiles and won't care who hits who. Funny, this means more busy work than in case if it was simply set at 10, because have to constantly re-evaluate picked CTH thresholds.
      Reaction radius thresholds...
            ...will be much easier to use by tacticians as well as those who want minimal management.

/End Turn

PS: Prepared for any witchery.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2017, 12:17:11 AM by ushas »


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Re: Overwatch, Attacks of Opportunity
« Reply #32 on: July 16, 2017, 11:54:19 PM »
May as well be summarized as: More choices are good, but not always...

Already depending on many variables, one CTH threshold is a fairly build dependent (viability varies), albeit changes with the battles situation. When more thresholds to choose from are available it appears to shift the focus more heavily towards tactical - players think they always should be able to figure it out, except... it's more complicated (see above). Like a puzzle. But then it needs to be supported as such (UI feedback etc.), not only making and troubleshooting buttons. I'm practically saying that one CTH threshold is not only easier to do but may even end up preferable.   

The thing is, the situation around reaction radius is less tied down. It can be made (in)dependent on other variables as much as you want, on the range from simple to complex, tactical to strategical, etc. I assume distance is known (required for CTH). Then various possibilities, for example (very loosely sorted by complexity to implement):
a) Simply static distance X tiles -> fully about tactical positioning.
b) Weapon [type] dependent but still static distance -> so positioning + weapon choices of units.
c) Stat dependent, eg. Intuition = radius -> positioning depends on stats of individual units, an ounce of strategy.
d) State of the attacker (cover, wounded...) dependent -> fully tactical as (a), but more dynamic.
e) Based on the skill & mode & state of the attacker -> like the CTH threshold, but the target's side not included.
f) Near/Med/Far buttons -> fully tactical, goes well with positioning, usability correlates with CTH (skill, weapon...).

There are many options to choose from or combine, none inherently inferior. In fact, (a) might be the most effective when you take into account the whole dynamic battle situation, and then the strategic choice could be a perk permanently changing this range. And so on with others.

The drawback is that, once inside the area, a defender has no means to protect himself from the trigger, but at least can try lower CTH. Some of the options make it harder for him to guess the trigger area. Ugh, starting to argue with myself.