Author Topic: Stand Fast Perk  (Read 156 times)

Nomad

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Stand Fast Perk
« on: November 24, 2017, 02:39:35 AM »
May I suggest that Injury checks are only done once when this Perk is active?
I would hate to have an ally receive an injury (the major injuries that affect Stats), have the Perk bring them back from the brink with 1 Health and then have them hit again and receive another major injury (assuming that ally death is not a thing).

I don't know the mechanic for injuries, so this may not even be a thing.
I'm just suggesting that you be aware of it and consider the options.

Daithi

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Re: Stand Fast Perk
« Reply #1 on: November 24, 2017, 11:37:51 AM »
Good point. Will look into the possibility of blocking injuries for the attack that triggers the perk. Another thing was thinking of is burst fire, could potentially kill the protected character with next shot in burst. Have added code to easily change number of times it activates per battle, so that would be easiest solution if this proves to be a problem.

ushas

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Re: Stand Fast Perk
« Reply #2 on: November 24, 2017, 02:07:40 PM »
From different perspective, makes sense that of all the hits, the one putting you down to be the most injury-some. I've even proposed to get lvl 2+ injury when downed. There is this peculiarity: those who stand and heal during battle will have less max hp than those who were incapacitated fast. At home it looks like you just fainted from a scratch. I suppose you guys see it differently?

I thought that Stand Fast might be an active perk during Arcadi's turn. How would he decide who and when goes up otherwise. Or that an ally stands on the beginning of his next turn. If it happens immediately, you have no control. The same or the next enemy will put 1hp ally down again. In a way, it serves as diversion, but not sure if all the players would apply positive attitude.

Btw. that was a great idea to make it his personal perk. An interesting prospect to consider even when not a primary shooter or leader.

Nomad

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Re: Stand Fast Perk
« Reply #3 on: November 24, 2017, 02:43:25 PM »
With burst fire... would it be possible to not evaluate Stand Fast until the enemy turn is completed? Evaluate at the end of the turn.
Was the person alive at the start of the turn? Are they dead at the end of the Turn? Has Stand Fast been used this fight?

Daithi

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Re: Stand Fast Perk
« Reply #4 on: November 24, 2017, 04:08:06 PM »
From different perspective, makes sense that of all the hits, the one putting you down to be the most injury-some. I've even proposed to get lvl 2+ injury when downed. There is this peculiarity: those who stand and heal during battle will have less max hp than those who were incapacitated fast. At home it looks like you just fainted from a scratch. I suppose you guys see it differently?

It's another one of those areas that could do with some more thought - at present, injury is based on critical - a quick look suggests no injury is being applied on KO. So blocking the KO through the perk would also block an injury, if one is applied on KO. Increasing the penalty for KO seems like a good move.

I thought that Stand Fast might be an active perk during Arcadi's turn. How would he decide who and when goes up otherwise. Or that an ally stands on the beginning of his next turn. If it happens immediately, you have no control. The same or the next enemy will put 1hp ally down again. In a way, it serves as diversion, but not sure if all the players would apply positive attitude.

Btw. that was a great idea to make it his personal perk. An interesting prospect to consider even when not a primary shooter or leader.

To retain its benefit, it's probably going to have to auto trigger. Was thinking the same thing, in certain circumstances, (burst or with multiple enemies) it might not provide much benefit. It might be best to increase activation count to 2. That will completely protect against double bursts, and provide a good defense against triple.



Daithi

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Re: Stand Fast Perk
« Reply #5 on: November 24, 2017, 04:13:50 PM »
With burst fire... would it be possible to not evaluate Stand Fast until the enemy turn is completed? Evaluate at the end of the turn.
Was the person alive at the start of the turn? Are they dead at the end of the Turn? Has Stand Fast been used this fight?

Possible, the quickest way to add it to catch all damage code necessitated putting it later in the logic. Probably need to evaluate prior to end turn (as melee animations and other things differ depending on KO/not). Whether is has been activated or not (or how many activations remain) should be displayed, to take out the guess work.  Will add it to the status effects bar in bottom right.

ushas

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Re: Stand Fast Perk
« Reply #6 on: November 25, 2017, 03:18:34 AM »
It's another one of those areas that could do with some more thought - at present, injury is based on critical
IIRC, there is also Resilience check against getting an injury. Or at least it's not on every crit. If you want some ideas or feedback at the time of thinking, feel free to let us know.

So blocking the KO through the perk would also block an injury, if one is applied on KO.
Ok. Understanding more now. It's not like a re-spawn mechanic, but more like when you sustained a blow that would otherwise knock you down, right?* Except it's not your personal lucky star but Arcadi's commanding presence at play. And indeed KO related things won't apply. However, in that case let me provide some different take:
 
No problem with bursts. Actually, bursts are logical defense against the thing. Depends on presentation. For example, barking can let us know what happened (perhaps Arcadi barks a command and the ally responds, plus/or some red text like 'Withstood downing!'). It can simply activate once per battle per ally. And Arcadi's perk icon on the top left can have 4 parts, a part for an ally grays out upon use. No need to complicate the burst code, neither applying unnecessary status icons. Btw. combining a shotgun + exploding canister applies two damages too, so...

Have you considered giving the perk to some of the enemy leaders? Or a drug having this properties (on districts under Elysium facility influence). Then I would for sure arm the team with smgs and other low AP+low dam means for such tricky encounter. The thing is, now the burst works for us...

Ad*: what about changing the name to make it more clear, eg. "Stand fast" -> "Steadfast" (sorry if stupid, non-native speaker here).
« Last Edit: November 25, 2017, 03:27:07 AM by ushas »

Nomad

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Re: Stand Fast Perk
« Reply #7 on: November 25, 2017, 04:59:47 AM »
I have a suggestion...

I believe the intent was: once during combat an ally that should be dropped, is recovered with 1 Health.

My suggestion:
If the Perk hasn't been triggered yet this fight, when it comes to an ally's turn, if that ally is below 1 Health, set to 1 Health and disable Stand Fast (or set to used).

This way, it doesn't matter about multiple fire or multiple enemies. The spirit of the Perk remains. The person is dropped but can take another turn or walk away (at least initially).

ushas

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Re: Stand Fast Perk
« Reply #8 on: November 25, 2017, 10:33:37 AM »
What you just described is re-spawning. Initially thought it works that way too, but we have been told the ally isn't be KOed in the first place (prob. some check if DAM lowers HP below 0, then apply 1hp instead?). Thus it's more like withstanding the knocking down blow no?

Am ok with either (whichever is easier to do), but those are two completely different things. To sum up:
1) The ally re-spawns: Yeah, the best served at the beginning of his turn, it's him standing up after all. Needs check if the tile still available.
2) The ally withstood knocking down: The best served immediate, it's tied to the blow after all. The ally won't go down.
In either case I see no problem with bursts, esp. if used by enemies too. Except perhaps when goes visibly down (1) but works immediate.

Daithi

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Re: Stand Fast Perk
« Reply #9 on: November 25, 2017, 01:01:39 PM »
I have a suggestion...

I believe the intent was: once during combat an ally that should be dropped, is recovered with 1 Health.

My suggestion:
If the Perk hasn't been triggered yet this fight, when it comes to an ally's turn, if that ally is below 1 Health, set to 1 Health and disable Stand Fast (or set to used).

This way, it doesn't matter about multiple fire or multiple enemies. The spirit of the Perk remains. The person is dropped but can take another turn or walk away (at least initially).

From a functional point of view, it's probably a better way to implement. Will keep it in mind. It would require AI work, to prevent them continually targeting the character and reworking the logic around what happens when a character drops below 0.

Would also like to strengthen up the perks for the medic (am looking at something like Emergency which Ushas described). At the point, very interested in more ideas for leader or medic perks, to give them some interesting abilities. Ideally would like each class to have a couple of activated.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2017, 01:06:00 PM by Daithi »

ushas

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Re: Stand Fast Perk
« Reply #10 on: November 30, 2017, 10:07:11 PM »
From the player perspective, it looks the game has two rules: standing units are targetable and downed units release tile. If any of those rules are to be broken, IMO it's good to have good reason for doing it. Possible dangers: confusion and breaking combat flow.

I got confused by the past discussion though, so most probably this has no barring on what have been proposed.   
« Last Edit: December 01, 2017, 08:55:32 PM by ushas »

Daithi

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Re: Stand Fast Perk
« Reply #11 on: December 08, 2017, 07:16:47 PM »
I increased the number of activations to 2 on this, as 1 didn't seem meaningful enough. Depending on how it affects gameplay, will look at more complex implementations.

Nomad

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Re: Stand Fast Perk
« Reply #12 on: December 09, 2017, 03:21:22 AM »
You could make the number of activations based on a Stat or Skill.
Eg: Requires 25 Medical to get the Perk. For every 25 Medical skill, there is 1 activation. So, 2 activations with Medical of 50-74 and 3 activations at 75-99, etc. You just work out what you think is an acceptable increment and implement that.
Or if based on the Leadership stat, then it requires 3 Leadership and then the number of activations are the Leadership stat divided by 3. So, 6-8 is 2 activations and 9-11 is 3 activations, etc.