[Resolved] Crouching: HtH mode and cover

[ushas]

(v15, linux)
When I position my character next to an enemy in an open space, he will stay standing doing this choreograph dance even if I choose to crouch. The game subtracts 1AP. And on the interface it offers to stand up, but it's not shown in the game. You can change the weapon - then the unit properly crouches. And if I switch back to HtH he will crouch too. I think the systems works properly but in game animation is somehow confusing. It's actually more problematic in the open space because you see your character standing not sure whether crouched or not.

Likewise, if he was crouched and an enemy attacks him, he will stand up on the screen and stay that way if HtH. When I get to his turn the interface indicates that he is still crouched while he is standing.

Neither is the crouching entirely consistent in the throwing mode, but I dunno, one may see that as special situation.

Suggestion: ok, let the unit stand when stepping next to an enemy or for choreographed dancing purposes, but let him go back into the crouched state right afterwards the attack ends (like is happening with any other weapon)? Also if he was given an order to crouch it needs to be shown happening (if crouching is allowed) no matter in which mode.

[Daithi]

Thanks, will take a look at this. You're right, the system works but there's some animation issue. I'll work in something along the lines of your suggestion. If it's the character's turn, may leave it until the end of the turn to resume crouching, and add a symbol so the player knows that the character is in crouch mode.

[Nomad]

Or... just change the button to be "Duck" and have a tooltip that says something like "Keep your head down if someone shoots at you."   =)

[Daithi]

Hey Nomad. That's definitely a possibility, thanks for the suggestion. I'll try to fix it first, see if it can be done in reasonable time, and put up an icon, so you'll know you're in crouch mode.

[ushas]

Additional thoughts and suggestions on crouching (v16, v17)

(1) When stepping next to a cover, sometimes the game shows that the unit visually crouches. According to the log and from the numbers, it gives nobody crouching gameplay bonuses. Smoke & mirrors?

(2) Even more confuses when crouching next to the cover isn't allowed because getting superior bonus or so. But that's a lie! Cover only gives directional defense bonus, whereas crouching will make you be smaller target in all directions.

(1)+(2) made me initially falsely believe into cover more than should, not taking real crouching into tactical consideration.

Suggestion: Cancel all crouching illusions, standing as default stance and let us crouch anywhere at will (for AP cost of course), leave it at decision. Then adjacent cover + crouching can combine into bigger directional difficulty to-be-hit. Likewise makes sense more accurate shooting from cover + crouched stance.     


(3) If crouched, I think the unit should always go back right at the moment an action allowed in crouching ended, like when shooting around the corner. When the crouching is issued you should see the unit always going down and vice versa. That it behaves visually consistently is more important than floating texts or elaborate icons. Sorry Duck! 

[Daithi]

1) The bonus is applied to characters adjacent to cover, regardless of animation state. Certain circumstances will force the character to stand, but they are still getting the bonus.

2) Cover gives crouching bonus in all directions, plus additional cover directionally. There is a perk called "Hunker Down", which gives additional defensive bonuses.

I can't remember why, but I remember thinking about this quite a lot when was figuring out how cover would work. It's probably hidden in a text document somewhere. Depending on how things go, I might get to have another look at cover.

[ushas]

I dunno, my English isn't probably good enough for this, but will try to rephrase the player's pov:

TL,DR: There are two different rules for crouching at play, differing in gameplay as well as how it connects visually.

(1) Crouching next to cover:
(a) Attackers get the accuracy bonus in all directions, but it doesn't matter if you were visually crouched or not beforehand. Have done some tests, although wasn't the goal, and so far seems consistent: The same CTH boost for shooting applied to characters adjacent to any cover as well as those crouched in open. I thought it's bonus from cover, but you were referring to crouching. That implies always crouching but then not getting cover bonus? Personally, I would thought cover + proper stance being even better for aiming than just proper stance (can brace, feel more safe etc.). 

(b) Targets don't get any defense bonus except directional, again regardless if visually crouched or not. So made another test on another map:

c
t   a   T

c- half-cover;   a- attacker;   t - crouched target next to cover,   T- target in open standing
Both targets are otherwise the same, the same distance from a, evasion etc.

Regardless which one attacked, I'm getting the same CTH = 38%.The log reports for both cases:
BCS.CalculateShotDifficulty. Shot difficulty is: 101 base shot difficulty: 60 shot difficulty from distance: 33 shot difficulty from crouching target: 0 shot difficulty from smoke: 0 shot difficulty from directional cover: 0 defense from evasion: 8 defense from armour: 0
But that means crouched 'T' has no defense bonus in comparison to 't' standing in open!

Adjacent to cover - summary:
 -> we're observing no crouching gameplay difference. The UI tooltip indicates standing.
Attackers adjacent to cover: Visual standing isn't standing, we're crouching and getting crouching accuracy bonus in all directions. No bonus from cover.
Defenders adjacent to cover: Visual crouching isn't crouching, we're standing. Cover gives only directional bonus. No crouching bonuses.



(2) Crouching in open space:
In open all works the opposite. Visually I see my allies crouch only in case I choose so (though it's inconsistent in those HtH situations as reported). And what we see is recognizably tied to gameplay via ranged defense as well offense.

Another example: Sam and Emilia as targets (Sam has Firearms, Patriot, no armor, Fleetness, all the same as Emilia):

Emilia was auto-crouched next to cover and Sam deliberately in open. Survivalist gentlemen nicely lined up to execute us. So far (have run such tests on other maps) the AI was always choosing the crouched target adjacent to cover. And indeed all of them attacked Emilia, no exception. The next turn I took her away so they attack Sam.

Survivalist attacking Emilia (adjacent to cover crouched):
BCS.CalculateShotDifficulty. Shot difficulty is: 123 base shot difficulty: 60 shot difficulty from distance: 55 shot difficulty from crouching target: 0 shot difficulty from smoke: 0 shot difficulty from directional cover: 0 defense from evasion: 8 defense from armour: 0
BCS.GetRangedChanceToHit. Shot difficulty is: 123 / shot score is: 55.86 chance to hit is: 45 use mode: 1

The same conditions, he attacks Sam (crouched in open):
BCS.CalculateShotDifficulty. Shot difficulty is: 148 base shot difficulty: 60 shot difficulty from distance: 55 shot difficulty from crouching target: 25 shot difficulty from smoke: 0 shot difficulty from directional cover: 0 defense from evasion: 8 defense from armour: 0
BCS.GetRangedChanceToHit. Shot difficulty is: 148 / shot score is: 55.86 chance to hit is: 37 use mode: 1

So Sam in open is better protected (those 25 from crouching). And I'm not believing anymore when the game says Emilia needs no crouching because "already receiving a greater defensive bonus from cover". Sorry! :/

In open - summary:
-> we're observing visual crouching as representing gameplay. In case of doubts, the UI seems giving proper info.
Attackers in open: Standing is standing, crouching is crouching, and gives crouching accuracy bonus in all directions.
Defenders in open: Standing is standing, crouching is crouching, and gives crouching defense bonus in all directions.



It changes tactical thinking. Depends (eg. parks and similar), if I see an enemy can make just a few sidesteps so an ally looses directional defense bonus, I will rather end turns crouched in open.

However, most of the players won't suspect two different crouchings, and assume that it all works consistently as did I.

Now, described above is what the game & log show. It's possible that under the hood it differs, you sound certain after all. It won't be the first game. But then the issue is in communication. (However, why would the AI act as above?)

Personally, would like to understand more to intentions for such in the middle system. For now it just seems harder to accept and sort out than each on its own - crouching as gameplay at will vs. crouching as just animation automatized.

Hope the confusion POV is now more clear. Feel free to correct or criticize, am far from being certain, but please don't assume I'm not thinking it through. First observed during v15 and since have been making tests. Believe me it pains me to criticize something you feel strongly about. 

[Daithi]

On the account of defensive bonuses from cover, it appears you are correct. It's possible that further calculations are being made, but not all that likely, will check if this is the case. It's been some time since the code for cover was written, but it appears that it's not functioning as intended. I think the reason cover & crouching was handled like this was to make animation states more manageable - while it's sometimes better to take an easier solution, I don't feel that strongly about it - in the end if it's not working properly, it needs to be fixed.

I'm sorry if it seems that I'm assuming you haven't thought it through - in fact, the opposite is true, your posts use a lot of log information and calculation and sometimes it feels like you understand how the game works better than I do! The main reason I've assumed that being in cover offers basic all around protection is that, ranged CTH is always lower for enemies touching cover. I'll investigate.

[Daithi]

How the months go by You were right about this one, Ushas. Characters in cover now get the crouching bonus in all directions.

[ushas]

Kudos for checking it out eventually. At the time, was 'only' fancying myself thinking that can try describe how the game appears to work, so you can contrast that with how you want it to appear to work. Yeah naive:) Trying to quantify psychological side-effects of visual <-> gameplay discrepancies... Seeing it a lot in games. A pity, because visual clues, if you can trust them, have a great potential.

When hunting Nomad's not passing turn, I time-traveled via resting, had just low-lvl CC guys. There was a black coat mafioso. Problem was, the team needed 2 turns to reach and put him down. BUT I recognized the rifle he was using. So we semi-hide and count bullets. Once it was the last one and he was about to reload next... we went, ending the first turn standing like neon Ys in open. And... it worked! He could have pulled a pistol out of that trench coat of his. After all, know your enemy AI. But still, the most satisfying battle I had so far.

Ok, back to cover. So now there are visual inconsistencies (esp. HtH), but not those playing against us anymore. Plus the UI button not indicating the stance properly (esp. next to cover)? I ssume that's lower in priorities.

Still strange getting crouch for free, instead of in addition, resp. at will. You mentioned animation states. Ok. Perhaps, an option is to make stepping between two kinds of tiles, adjacent to cover <-> tile in open, to cost +1AP as if standing up or crouching down on the way. Translates into things like trying to crawl along cover or not easy to run from hiding, I dunno.